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  TOV News > 2018 Acura RLX Arrives in Showrooms with Striking Redesign > > Re: Why do they bother?

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gearhead99
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Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-07-2017 14:40
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Acura must be losing a ton on this model. Hardly any sales at all. Do it right or don't do it at all. On this platform any flagship pretender is DOA. Take Honda's sibling models, jack them up a notch and shut Acura down. It's an embarrassment to Honda.
Hondarulez
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-07-2017 18:10
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My guess is that they spent minimal amount of money for this MMC. It's essentially a nose job plus a bit of feature reshuffling.

The idea is to get the grille on the car so all Acura models have the same grille and wait for the next gen models to come out.

HondaDad
Profile for HondaDad
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2017 01:19
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At less than 100 units a month this seems like a huge waste. Bummed Honda is wasting it's limited resources. Would rather see another SUV and/or quicker full model change on the TLX.

lexusgs
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2017 10:47
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I would rather just see a actual real flagship on a premium rwd platform, using a premium engine not shared with a Honda with a Tier 1 interior not using fake wood trim and premium luxury features found in other flagships.
TonyEX
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2017 15:29
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lexusgs wrote:
I would rather just see a actual real flagship on a premium rwd platform, using a premium engine not shared with a Honda with a Tier 1 interior not using fake wood trim and premium luxury features found in other flagships.



Oh hell.... there we go again..

I would rather win 50 mil in the lotto (after tax) so I could get myself limo'd and Lear'd around the world with six slaves and a palanquin to go around the neighborhood and the golf course.

Make sure the palanquin has plenty of wood, naturally!!

superchg2
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2017 21:42
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For $24,000, the new 10 gen Accord has a raft of new and improved features, including Honda Sensing and 38 m.p.g. highway.

Or spend $56,000 and get a spiffed up 8 gen V-6 Accord, with an MDX schnoz.


longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2017 08:42
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superchg2 wrote:
For $24,000, the new 10 gen Accord has a raft of new and improved features, including Honda Sensing and 38 m.p.g. highway.

Or spend $56,000 and get a spiffed up 8 gen V-6 Accord, with an MDX schnoz.




Wow,that hurts but true. Mpgs are a disappointment for a hybrid.

superchg2
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2017 11:43
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longhorn wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
For $24,000, the new 10 gen Accord has a raft of new and improved features, including Honda Sensing and 38 m.p.g. highway.

Or spend $56,000 and get a spiffed up 8 gen V-6 Accord, with an MDX schnoz.




Wow,that hurts but true. Mpgs are a disappointment for a hybrid.


That 38 m.p.g. is for the Accord LX.

gezzuzz
Profile for gezzuzz
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2017 15:10
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gearhead99 wrote:
Acura must be losing a ton on this model. Hardly any sales at all. Do it right or don't do it at all. On this platform any flagship pretender is DOA. Take Honda's sibling models, jack them up a notch and shut Acura down. It's an embarrassment to Honda.


honda wants accord to the their flagship models... they dont want a honda this is better then the accord.. better to sell car under different brand with meaningless letter models...

jauniez
Profile for jauniez
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2017 22:27
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I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.
superchg2
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2017 02:16
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With the RLX, there should have been a "Go, No Go" moment by whomever are in charge at Acura, where the cost of the MMC was taken into consideration, along with the almost nonexistent sales/profits to date.

Considering that the RLX has not been on most buyers Radar for some time now, in a declining market, the only answer here should have been a resounding "No Go"

An entry level Sport Utility based on the HRV is where they could get the most bang for the buck.

superchg2
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2017 02:21
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superchg2 wrote:
With the RLX, there should have been a "Go, No Go" moment by whomever are in charge at Acura, where the cost of the MMC was taken into consideration, along with the almost nonexistent sales/profits to date.

Considering that the RLX has not been on most buyers Radar for some time now, in a declining market, the only answer here should have been a resounding "No Go"

An entry level Sport Utility based on the HRV is where they could get the most bang for the buck.


P.S. It is possible they have been in fact losing money on the RLX's.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2017 11:03
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superchg2 wrote:
With the RLX, there should have been a "Go, No Go" moment by whomever are in charge at Acura, where the cost of the MMC was taken into consideration, along with the almost nonexistent sales/profits to date.

Considering that the RLX has not been on most buyers Radar for some time now, in a declining market, the only answer here should have been a resounding "No Go"

An entry level Sport Utility based on the HRV is where they could get the most bang for the buck.



You can already get that sub entry econo cuv at the Honda dealership, there does not need to be a version for Acura.

Focusing on sub entry vehicles for Acura makes Acura's position worse even if it generates more sales, it is exactly what is wrong with Acura and why the RLX does not sell. A lineup consisting of vehicles based on econo and family sedans with nothing competitive based on the med to upper level is Acura's problem. You don't build or heal a luxury or performance brand from the way bottom up.

superchg2
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2017 20:24
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lexusgs wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
With the RLX, there should have been a "Go, No Go" moment by whomever are in charge at Acura, where the cost of the MMC was taken into consideration, along with the almost nonexistent sales/profits to date.

Considering that the RLX has not been on most buyers Radar for some time now, in a declining market, the only answer here should have been a resounding "No Go"

An entry level Sport Utility based on the HRV is where they could get the most bang for the buck.



You can already get that sub entry econo cuv at the Honda dealership, there does not need to be a version for Acura.

Focusing on sub entry vehicles for Acura makes Acura's position worse even if it generates more sales, it is exactly what is wrong with Acura and why the RLX does not sell. A lineup consisting of vehicles based on econo and family sedans with nothing competitive based on the med to upper level is Acura's problem. You don't build or heal a luxury or performance brand from the way bottom up.


I agree with what you are saying. I guess I have just come to the conclusion that Honda will probably not let Acura go their own way financially or creatively and that Acura should focus on cars that people want to buy, given those limitations.

gearhead99
Profile for gearhead99
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2017 21:21
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superchg2 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
With the RLX, there should have been a "Go, No Go" moment by whomever are in charge at Acura, where the cost of the MMC was taken into consideration, along with the almost nonexistent sales/profits to date.

Considering that the RLX has not been on most buyers Radar for some time now, in a declining market, the only answer here should have been a resounding "No Go"

An entry level Sport Utility based on the HRV is where they could get the most bang for the buck.



You can already get that sub entry econo cuv at the Honda dealership, there does not need to be a version for Acura.

Focusing on sub entry vehicles for Acura makes Acura's position worse even if it generates more sales, it is exactly what is wrong with Acura and why the RLX does not sell. A lineup consisting of vehicles based on econo and family sedans with nothing competitive based on the med to upper level is Acura's problem. You don't build or heal a luxury or performance brand from the way bottom up.


I agree with what you are saying. I guess I have just come to the conclusion that Honda will probably not let Acura go their own way financially or creatively and that Acura should focus on cars that people want to buy, given those limitations.



You start at the top with your flagship. The RLX doesn't cut it. Audi proves with the A8 you don't have to have RWD but you have to differentiate your flagship from your mass market offering well beyond what Acura's attempted with the RLX. Audi is helped by a full line that stands ahead of the VW offerings they're based on. Offering premium products that are behind their mass market counterparts is really a fools errand. Acura has been playing the fool for too many years now. I was considering a TLX after the recent refresh but not a chance in heck I'd buy one now that the 10th gen Accord is out. I have to wonder what Honda/Acura are thinking when they make these poor product decisions. It has to be deliberate but what do they hope to accomplish? Many who bought the '18 TLX have to feel blindsided. Not the best way to build a loyal following.



Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 04:24
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I said at the time of its launch, the TLX looked like a nice EuroAccord at best and was concerned it would date very quickly in the light of new premiums competitors. The new Alfas and Jaguars might not have set the market alight, but they do show the way forward.
honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 10:02
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Re: Alfa and Jag, in what way do they light the path? Qfog is interesting. But do you expect Acura to offer something like this?

I still canít figure out what Acura means or what they can do that would be different from everyone else?

Based on experience, the only area that I think there is currently a need is if they are able to provide everyday comfort while still be hard charging and put out unexpected numbers. Something towards a Q car (doesnít have to overtly announce its performance but not boring either and has a truly compliant ride). Some of the other guys are putting out some serious performance but are a bit stiff and numb. While others are too floppy and badge engineered (I.e., Msporty thing).

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 10:56
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honduh wrote:
Re: Alfa and Jag, in what way do they light the path? Qfog is interesting. But do you expect Acura to offer something like this?

I still canít figure out what Acura means or what they can do that would be different from everyone else?

Based on experience, the only area that I think there is currently a need is if they are able to provide everyday comfort while still be hard charging and put out unexpected numbers. Something towards a Q car (doesnít have to overtly announce its performance but not boring either and has a truly compliant ride). Some of the other guys are putting out some serious performance but are a bit stiff and numb. While others are too floppy and badge engineered (I.e., Msporty thing).



They at least look very nice, and that's competition the TLX can do without. Even the boring Diseasel versions.

Acura has UPSs such as P-AWS and SH-AWD, but they don't even leverage those as effectively as they ought.

I don't really expect Acura to offer a Qfog, merely to carry on making the same half-hearted mistakes.


honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 12:49
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Nick GravesX wrote:
honduh wrote:
Re: Alfa and Jag, in what way do they light the path? Qfog is interesting. But do you expect Acura to offer something like this?

I still canít figure out what Acura means or what they can do that would be different from everyone else?

Based on experience, the only area that I think there is currently a need is if they are able to provide everyday comfort while still be hard charging and put out unexpected numbers. Something towards a Q car (doesnít have to overtly announce its performance but not boring either and has a truly compliant ride). Some of the other guys are putting out some serious performance but are a bit stiff and numb. While others are too floppy and badge engineered (I.e., Msporty thing).



They at least look very nice, and that's competition the TLX can do without. Even the boring Diseasel versions.

Acura has UPSs such as P-AWS and SH-AWD, but they don't even leverage those as effectively as they ought.

I don't really expect Acura to offer a Qfog, merely to carry on making the same half-hearted mistakes.


Yes, agreed about UPSs. They havenít delivered. But no point in over analyzing vaporware.

Perhaps towards more reality in the Honda-universe, a TLX with CTR engine a la...

https://blog.caranddriver.com/new-alfa-romeo-engine-leaks-will-we-see-a-350-hp-giulia-veloce/

Yes, I know this will ruffle some feathers.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 15:02
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Nick GravesX wrote:
I said at the time of its launch, the TLX looked like a nice EuroAccord at best and was concerned it would date very quickly in the light of new premiums competitors. The new Alfas and Jaguars might not have set the market alight, but they do show the way forward.



A couple of years ago, at the LA Auto Show, they had the Jag/Audi displays across the aisle from Acura.

I got a chance to walk from an Audi A8 LWB AWD ($120K++) into an RLX eSH-AWD with Krell ($65K).

The RLX was a much larger car inside, typically American, not tight like the German car. Where the German car won was in options and internal finishes AND MARKETING. (*)

The problem with Acura is not with the car per se.. it's big inside, it has the power and the technology. What it needs is $10K more in options. materials and extra body creases, $40K more in MSRP and a marketing schema based on pushing a fake price (boat anchor in an argument) that exudes a notion of exclusiveness... Oddly then they will be able to sell 20,000 RoLeX's.... rather than the 1000 or so they sell today!

As an engineer, looking at people's reaction to Audi and Jaguar was interesting. Their designs are tight interiors, overpriced and gaudy; their technology is at best mediocre; their R&D is overly complex; and their manufacturing is inefficient, pricey and buggy.

Yet people are attracted to those cars on image and image alone. Many people confuse "PRICE" with image and quality.. even if the price is so inflated that the manufacturer can lease the cars at heavily "discounted" prices (**) so the actual price of the cars is not so expensive (***). But, by hiding the actual price, marketing can push the myth of exclusivity...

(*) Lying to people.

(**) "Discounted" only because the original price is ridiculous and disconnected from reality -see (*) above- than they can "drop" the transaction price and still see a healthy profit margin.

(***) See mom? I leased a $100K car for $600 a month and 10,000 miles per year for five years! What a deal, eh?





lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 17:08
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TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I said at the time of its launch, the TLX looked like a nice EuroAccord at best and was concerned it would date very quickly in the light of new premiums competitors. The new Alfas and Jaguars might not have set the market alight, but they do show the way forward.



A couple of years ago, at the LA Auto Show, they had the Jag/Audi displays across the aisle from Acura.

I got a chance to walk from an Audi A8 LWB AWD ($120K++) into an RLX eSH-AWD with Krell ($65K).

The RLX was a much larger car inside, typically American, not tight like the German car. Where the German car won was in options and internal finishes AND MARKETING. (*)

The problem with Acura is not with the car per se.. it's big inside, it has the power and the technology. What it needs is $10K more in options. materials and extra body creases, $40K more in MSRP and a marketing schema based on pushing a fake price (boat anchor in an argument) that exudes a notion of exclusiveness... Oddly then they will be able to sell 20,000 RoLeX's.... rather than the 1000 or so they sell today!

As an engineer, looking at people's reaction to Audi and Jaguar was interesting. Their designs are tight interiors, overpriced and gaudy; their technology is at best mediocre; their R&D is overly complex; and their manufacturing is inefficient, pricey and buggy.

Yet people are attracted to those cars on image and image alone. Many people confuse "PRICE" with image and quality.. even if the price is so inflated that the manufacturer can lease the cars at heavily "discounted" prices (**) so the actual price of the cars is not so expensive (***). But, by hiding the actual price, marketing can push the myth of exclusivity...

(*) Lying to people.

(**) "Discounted" only because the original price is ridiculous and disconnected from reality -see (*) above- than they can "drop" the transaction price and still see a healthy profit margin.

(***) See mom? I leased a $100K car for $600 a month and 10,000 miles per year for five years! What a deal, eh?







It is obvious you don't have a clue about the luxury market and don't even like it based on these statements and attacking it and their buyers with the "lying"/"fake price" nonsense yet you keep making suggestion for some reason for Acura which are not good either.

I don't know what Audi A8 LW or Jag XJ LW I am assuming you sat in but they are both more roomy and have much better rear seat accumulations then a RLX. A LS460 LW is more roomy too. Those cars not only allow you to recline the rear seat but they allow you to extend foot rests, neither which the RLX offers or could do. The previous generation Audi A8 blows the interior of the current RLX away.

The RLX does not have the power to be competitive. A A8 with the tt V8 makes 430hp and can do 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, the fwd RLX is 310hp and way off that, a hybrid is way off that too.

You keep ranting that it is just "marketing" that sells the cars in this class and why the RLX has failed when that could not be further from the truth, building up a brand with impressive cars each generation is not "marketing". People are not stupid, especially luxury buyers, you can't just add some nicer materials and expect people to suddenly think it is worth paying 40K more.

Acura could do what Audi did with the A8 or Genesis did with the G90 and charge 70 or 75K for it and they would have been successful. Instead they chose to do "smart luxury", a fancy Accord with Accord engine, fake wood trim and some complicated heavy hybrid system nobody was asking for and they are a last place embarrassment in that segment with a car that in of itself is not bad at all, just has nothing much going for it in this segment or any real desirability.

You say flagship sedans are overpriced at 100K which I agree they are but with unique premium platforms, 8 and 12 cylinder engines, full on luxury interiors and full luxury options not available in other types of cars they are no more overpriced then a 50 or 60K RLX flagship based on a Accord, using a Honda family 6 cylinder, fake wood trim, mediocre performance, lack of unique luxury features, with little to no presence or brand recognition.

At least buyers of 100K S classes and 7 series seem to think they are worth it when you look at sales and success and they certainly help the brands image.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 17:53
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lexusgs wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I said at the time of its launch, the TLX looked like a nice EuroAccord at best and was concerned it would date very quickly in the light of new premiums competitors. The new Alfas and Jaguars might not have set the market alight, but they do show the way forward.



A couple of years ago, at the LA Auto Show, they had the Jag/Audi displays across the aisle from Acura.

I got a chance to walk from an Audi A8 LWB AWD ($120K++) into an RLX eSH-AWD with Krell ($65K).

The RLX was a much larger car inside, typically American, not tight like the German car. Where the German car won was in options and internal finishes AND MARKETING. (*)

The problem with Acura is not with the car per se.. it's big inside, it has the power and the technology. What it needs is $10K more in options. materials and extra body creases, $40K more in MSRP and a marketing schema based on pushing a fake price (boat anchor in an argument) that exudes a notion of exclusiveness... Oddly then they will be able to sell 20,000 RoLeX's.... rather than the 1000 or so they sell today!

As an engineer, looking at people's reaction to Audi and Jaguar was interesting. Their designs are tight interiors, overpriced and gaudy; their technology is at best mediocre; their R&D is overly complex; and their manufacturing is inefficient, pricey and buggy.

Yet people are attracted to those cars on image and image alone. Many people confuse "PRICE" with image and quality.. even if the price is so inflated that the manufacturer can lease the cars at heavily "discounted" prices (**) so the actual price of the cars is not so expensive (***). But, by hiding the actual price, marketing can push the myth of exclusivity...

(*) Lying to people.

(**) "Discounted" only because the original price is ridiculous and disconnected from reality -see (*) above- than they can "drop" the transaction price and still see a healthy profit margin.

(***) See mom? I leased a $100K car for $600 a month and 10,000 miles per year for five years! What a deal, eh?







It is obvious you don't have a clue about the luxury market and don't even like it based on these statements and attacking it and their buyers with the "lying"/"fake price" nonsense yet you keep making suggestion for some reason for Acura which are not good either.

I don't know what Audi A8 LW or Jag XJ LW I am assuming you sat in but they are both more roomy and have much better rear seat accumulations then a RLX. A LS460 LW is more roomy too. Those cars not only allow you to recline the rear seat but they allow you to extend foot rests, neither which the RLX offers or could do. The previous generation Audi A8 blows the interior of the current RLX away.

The RLX does not have the power to be competitive. A A8 with the tt V8 makes 430hp and can do 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, the fwd RLX is 310hp and way off that, a hybrid is way off that too.

You keep ranting that it is just "marketing" that sells the cars in this class and why the RLX has failed when that could not be further from the truth, building up a brand with impressive cars each generation is not "marketing". People are not stupid, especially luxury buyers, you can't just add some nicer materials and expect people to suddenly think it is worth paying 40K more.

Acura could do what Audi did with the A8 or Genesis did with the G90 and charge 70 or 75K for it and they would have been successful. Instead they chose to do "smart luxury", a fancy Accord with Accord engine, fake wood trim and some complicated heavy hybrid system nobody was asking for and they are a last place embarrassment in that segment with a car that in of itself is not bad at all, just has nothing much going for it in this segment or any real desirability.

You say flagship sedans are overpriced at 100K which I agree they are but with unique premium platforms, 8 and 12 cylinder engines, full on luxury interiors and full luxury options not available in other types of cars they are no more overpriced then a 50 or 60K RLX flagship based on a Accord, using a Honda family 6 cylinder, fake wood trim, mediocre performance, lack of unique luxury features, with little to no presence or brand recognition.

At least buyers of 100K S classes and 7 series seem to think they are worth it when you look at sales and success and they certainly help the brands image.



(1) I compared the RoLeX vs. the Jags and Audi.
(2) The A8 we looked at had a V6 and AWD, it LWB, it had about the same legroom than the RoLeX but if just felt narrower. I sat in both. Front and back.
(3) The Jags all felt tight. I sat in most of them, including the biggest ones. Front and back.
(4) I did not write about the Lexus, Benz, Bimmer... non sequitur. Stick to the program. Logically invalid.
(5) You did not counter argument my premise that marketing is all about lying. Instead you launch an ad hominem attack. Logically invalid.
(6) Your argument posits that "it is obvious" but it fails to provice argumentative support. It's all about facts. Logical failure.
(7) You've never driven that "complicated AWD system that nobody asked for" nor do you know if any one asked for it (*). So, again your statement is logically fallacious.
(8) Luxury buyers actually are rather stupid. They spend money on stuff like "status" to "show off". In reality they'd be better off buying real luxury in places that matter: furniture, clothes, food. The places where money went by Europeans who invented "old money" luxury. I'd rather spend the money on a meal at the Ritz Carlton Dining Room that make the payment on a Benz CLS.
(9) I say nothing about the cost of flagship sedans. You assume. As my old boss use to say to me when he was mentoring me...

"Tony don't assume, remember that what the first three letters of assume are... if you assume.. you make an ass of yourself!"

(*) Years ago, I described such a system with electric motors in ToV. When HMC announced iMMD it became obvious that eSH-AWD was the natural step. Have you driven iMMD? SH-AWD? eSH-AWD? Audi's AWD? Lexus AWD?



lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 19:23
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TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I said at the time of its launch, the TLX looked like a nice EuroAccord at best and was concerned it would date very quickly in the light of new premiums competitors. The new Alfas and Jaguars might not have set the market alight, but they do show the way forward.



A couple of years ago, at the LA Auto Show, they had the Jag/Audi displays across the aisle from Acura.

I got a chance to walk from an Audi A8 LWB AWD ($120K++) into an RLX eSH-AWD with Krell ($65K).

The RLX was a much larger car inside, typically American, not tight like the German car. Where the German car won was in options and internal finishes AND MARKETING. (*)

The problem with Acura is not with the car per se.. it's big inside, it has the power and the technology. What it needs is $10K more in options. materials and extra body creases, $40K more in MSRP and a marketing schema based on pushing a fake price (boat anchor in an argument) that exudes a notion of exclusiveness... Oddly then they will be able to sell 20,000 RoLeX's.... rather than the 1000 or so they sell today!

As an engineer, looking at people's reaction to Audi and Jaguar was interesting. Their designs are tight interiors, overpriced and gaudy; their technology is at best mediocre; their R&D is overly complex; and their manufacturing is inefficient, pricey and buggy.

Yet people are attracted to those cars on image and image alone. Many people confuse "PRICE" with image and quality.. even if the price is so inflated that the manufacturer can lease the cars at heavily "discounted" prices (**) so the actual price of the cars is not so expensive (***). But, by hiding the actual price, marketing can push the myth of exclusivity...

(*) Lying to people.

(**) "Discounted" only because the original price is ridiculous and disconnected from reality -see (*) above- than they can "drop" the transaction price and still see a healthy profit margin.

(***) See mom? I leased a $100K car for $600 a month and 10,000 miles per year for five years! What a deal, eh?







It is obvious you don't have a clue about the luxury market and don't even like it based on these statements and attacking it and their buyers with the "lying"/"fake price" nonsense yet you keep making suggestion for some reason for Acura which are not good either.

I don't know what Audi A8 LW or Jag XJ LW I am assuming you sat in but they are both more roomy and have much better rear seat accumulations then a RLX. A LS460 LW is more roomy too. Those cars not only allow you to recline the rear seat but they allow you to extend foot rests, neither which the RLX offers or could do. The previous generation Audi A8 blows the interior of the current RLX away.

The RLX does not have the power to be competitive. A A8 with the tt V8 makes 430hp and can do 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, the fwd RLX is 310hp and way off that, a hybrid is way off that too.

You keep ranting that it is just "marketing" that sells the cars in this class and why the RLX has failed when that could not be further from the truth, building up a brand with impressive cars each generation is not "marketing". People are not stupid, especially luxury buyers, you can't just add some nicer materials and expect people to suddenly think it is worth paying 40K more.

Acura could do what Audi did with the A8 or Genesis did with the G90 and charge 70 or 75K for it and they would have been successful. Instead they chose to do "smart luxury", a fancy Accord with Accord engine, fake wood trim and some complicated heavy hybrid system nobody was asking for and they are a last place embarrassment in that segment with a car that in of itself is not bad at all, just has nothing much going for it in this segment or any real desirability.

You say flagship sedans are overpriced at 100K which I agree they are but with unique premium platforms, 8 and 12 cylinder engines, full on luxury interiors and full luxury options not available in other types of cars they are no more overpriced then a 50 or 60K RLX flagship based on a Accord, using a Honda family 6 cylinder, fake wood trim, mediocre performance, lack of unique luxury features, with little to no presence or brand recognition.

At least buyers of 100K S classes and 7 series seem to think they are worth it when you look at sales and success and they certainly help the brands image.



(1) I compared the RoLeX vs. the Jags and Audi.
(2) The A8 we looked at had a V6 and AWD, it LWB, it had about the same legroom than the RoLeX but if just felt narrower. I sat in both. Front and back.
(3) The Jags all felt tight. I sat in most of them, including the biggest ones. Front and back.
(4) I did not write about the Lexus, Benz, Bimmer... non sequitur. Stick to the program. Logically invalid.
(5) You did not counter argument my premise that marketing is all about lying. Instead you launch an ad hominem attack. Logically invalid.
(6) Your argument posits that "it is obvious" but it fails to provice argumentative support. It's all about facts. Logical failure.
(7) You've never driven that "complicated AWD system that nobody asked for" nor do you know if any one asked for it (*). So, again your statement is logically fallacious.
(8) Luxury buyers actually are rather stupid. They spend money on stuff like "status" to "show off". In reality they'd be better off buying real luxury in places that matter: furniture, clothes, food. The places where money went by Europeans who invented "old money" luxury. I'd rather spend the money on a meal at the Ritz Carlton Dining Room that make the payment on a Benz CLS.
(9) I say nothing about the cost of flagship sedans. You assume. As my old boss use to say to me when he was mentoring me...

"Tony don't assume, remember that what the first three letters of assume are... if you assume.. you make an ass of yourself!"

(*) Years ago, I described such a system with electric motors in ToV. When HMC announced iMMD it became obvious that eSH-AWD was the natural step. Have you driven iMMD? SH-AWD? eSH-AWD? Audi's AWD? Lexus AWD?





I have sat in and driven all the cars you mentioned and I mentioned. The A8 long wheelbase had more leg room along with the LS LW and both had versions where you could recline with a foot rest/ottoman which were on another level more comfortable then the RLX rear seat not to mention the seats were heated, had more vents, cooled, had audio/temp controls, video, and massage features, the Hyundai Equus and G90 even had these features. I don't how you could possibly have sat in all and came away that the RLX was just as roomy and comfortable as the long wheelbase Audi and Jag and other flagship competitors.

Please explain and provide examples where only Acura's competitors "lie" to their customers or any more so then Acura does. The only area I can see where competitors lie is the recent trend in naming of hybrids and turbo 4 cylinders that allude to a larger higher displacement/cylinder engine when it is in reality a smaller engine.

8) The proof you have no idea what you are talking about and have disdain for the luxury market and its buyers yet for some reason you still come in here with suggestions and arguing with other people who do. If you think luxury car buyers are stupid then just stop replying here. I am not stupid, my parents are not stupid, my friends, family, co workers and fellow enthusiasts are not stupid for liking and buying luxury cars. To make that generalization about millions of people is what sounds
rather "stupid". Didn't you own a TLX and a IS, Alfa, or BMW in the past, doesn't that make you "stupid" also?

I don't buy and drive luxury cars just for the "status" either, I don't care about status but I do like nice things. I buy luxury cars used so I am paying about what most people spend on a family sedan, I just like the performance, interiors, the way they drive, and looks of luxury cars and having something more unique on the road.

I think buying over priced meals at over priced restaurants where the experience ends in about a hour or so is pretty stupid over a car that you can experience every day for hours for years but I don't go into foodie sites and attack people who like doing that calling them stupid. Funny thing is most people who like and buy luxury cars also tend to eat at more expensive place, wear expensive cloths, and have expensive furniture which I also think is a waste of money, the more comfortable and inviting furniture pieces are generally lower priced then the "stylish" expensive pieces.

I have driven Acura's Shawd systems, we have one in the family and I have driven competitors awd systems too, some are pretty good like Audi's and Porsche, some are nothing to write home about like Mercedes and Lexus's awd systems. Either way the hybrid awd system put on a Accord platform has done nothing for the sales or image or the RLX and has not turned it into some M5 killer or great driving sedan either because the basics simply are not there.

notyper
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 21:54
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I think you're way off base in your analysis of the luxury market Tony. I won't guess as to the reasons why, but I think you are and the numbers out there would suggest so too.

But ignore all that. Forget about Audi, or Jag, or the other prestigious marques.

Why does the whale like (in terms of looks) Caddy XTS outsell the similarly sized, driven (FWD and AWD) priced and powered Acura RLX by 20:1? Cadillac is not a Tier1 brand yet. They've botched a lot of the momentum they had been building. The XTS is a complete outlier compared to the rest of their brand strategy. Yet it simply crushes the RLX. Is it because the XTS has a bigger back seat? Is that what it has come down to. Is this the market Acura wants?

You can read the reviews and comparison tests of the RLX and XTS (a few were done in 13/14) and see what they say. But attempting to find places where the RLX might have advantages over $100k luxo sedans that are more successful is completely (and I mean by intergalactic distances) missing the problem.

SC


PoweredbyHondaX
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2017 22:33
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lexusgs wrote:
I would rather just see a actual real flagship on a premium rwd platform, using a premium engine not shared with a Honda with a Tier 1 interior not using fake wood trim and premium luxury features found in other flagships.


J Series engine is more premium engine then most luxury brands top teir engines. Smoothness is un rivaled. except for maybe some V16s

lexusgs
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2017 00:44
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PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
I would rather just see a actual real flagship on a premium rwd platform, using a premium engine not shared with a Honda with a Tier 1 interior not using fake wood trim and premium luxury features found in other flagships.


J Series engine is more premium engine then most luxury brands top teir engines. Smoothness is un rivaled. except for maybe some V16s



It is a smooth engine no doubt but so are competitors V8's and V12's which absolutely crush the J series in power, performance, and effortless acceleration in more balanced platforms. It is not as smooth as a inline 6 either.

notyper
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2017 01:13
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PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
I would rather just see a actual real flagship on a premium rwd platform, using a premium engine not shared with a Honda with a Tier 1 interior not using fake wood trim and premium luxury features found in other flagships.


J Series engine is more premium engine then most luxury brands top teir engines. Smoothness is un rivaled. except for maybe some V16s



How in the world do you support that opinion? The J-series is a venerable old platform that far exceeded any of my original expectations for it. But, compared to the turbo-6's that dominate this class, it is woefully underpowered and even more significantly undertorqued. 0-60 in 5.8 seconds is midpack at best as well (for FWD RLX).

Smoothness wise, I don't think the J-series is smoother than BMW's I6 lineup, nor is it smoother than the small V8s that increasingly populate this class (although they really aren't the competition for anything save perhaps the RLX hybrid).

Nothing really wrong with the RLX until you start looking at what the competition offers.

SC

Nick GravesX
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2017 05:04
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:D

That is a great line, Shawn!

honduh
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2017 08:15
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notyper wrote:
PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
I would rather just see a actual real flagship on a premium rwd platform, using a premium engine not shared with a Honda with a Tier 1 interior not using fake wood trim and premium luxury features found in other flagships.


J Series engine is more premium engine then most luxury brands top teir engines. Smoothness is un rivaled. except for maybe some V16s



How in the world do you support that opinion? The J-series is a venerable old platform that far exceeded any of my original expectations for it. But, compared to the turbo-6's that dominate this class, it is woefully underpowered and even more significantly undertorqued. 0-60 in 5.8 seconds is midpack at best as well (for FWD RLX).

Smoothness wise, I don't think the J-series is smoother than BMW's I6 lineup, nor is it smoother than the small V8s that increasingly populate this class (although they really aren't the competition for anything save perhaps the RLX hybrid).

Nothing really wrong with the RLX until you start looking at what the competition offers.

SC

Indeed, the B58 is quite the gem. I am now spoiled from experiencing its smoothness and flexibility. And there are certainly other examples out there of good powertrains.

I feel now the supposed DOHC V6T if/when Honda decides to make it has to meet some high expectations.

honduh
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Re: Why do they bother? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2017 10:38
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TonyEX wrote:
In reality they'd be better off buying real luxury in places that matter: furniture, clothes, food.


Ultimately, none of it really matters because you can't take it with you when your time is up in this world.

Furniture? Gets destroyed especially if you have kids, eventually turned into firewood, or sold for cheap on craigslist.

Clothes? Goes out of fashion, gets chewed up by the washing machine, doesn't even get taken by goodwill, or you can't pull off the look.

Food? A memorable meal, maybe, hopefully shared with people you care about. Or better yet, help feed the hungry. But for "luxury," even you can't eventually stop someone from turning your tomato plants into catsup (*) rather than say tomato tartare.

So in the end, it's all just personal preference.

(*) If the squirrels don't get to it first. Yep, not even the genuine stuff...just the knock off condiment.


 
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