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  TOV News > American Honda Reports July Sales Results > > Re: TLX outselling 3-series?

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notyper
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TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 19:05
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I know they said retail sales, but lets be honest here, the 3-series doesn't get sold to fleets like, say, a Camry, but it does get leased by plenty of companies for employees (especially small businesses with single owners).

The TLX has been averaging about 2500 units per month vs. nearly 4000 units/month for the 3-series. It's really not even close, and the 3-series has been in free fall the last 4 years, dropping from 100k units/year to near 50k/year at current pace (well deserved free fall too as BMW has abandoned its driver's car focus).

I think its some very questionable marketing on Acura's part.

SC

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 19:19
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I skipped that somehow. I must have a marketing filter.
None
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Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 19:49
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BMW cars sales are still about 4X what Acura does. Acura only has cars. BMW has very many options. GTs, wagons, coupes, sedans...
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 20:25
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notyper wrote:
I know they said retail sales, but lets be honest here, the 3-series doesn't get sold to fleets like, say, a Camry, but it does get leased by plenty of companies for employees (especially small businesses with single owners).

The TLX has been averaging about 2500 units per month vs. nearly 4000 units/month for the 3-series. It's really not even close, and the 3-series has been in free fall the last 4 years, dropping from 100k units/year to near 50k/year at current pace (well deserved free fall too as BMW has abandoned its driver's car focus).

I think its some very questionable marketing on Acura's part.

SC



According to the numbers that Acura has (I don't know where they get them), the answer is yes, the BMW and Audi are both selling heavily into fleets. Incidentally, the TLX is ranked 3rd in retail behind the C-Class and ES.

Here are the numbers (ytd through June) that they sent to me in response to my query.

Retail Sales
C-Class - 21,826
ES - 18,435
TLX - 15,747
3-Series - 14,809
Q50 - 14,326
A4 - 13,740
Model 3 - 11,750
IS - 10,804
ATS - 7,343
Giulia - 6,056
S60 - 3,212

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 20:51
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https://www.bmwgroupfleet.com/

This is where BMW does a lot of their "fleet" sales. It's a great program if your company participates, but it isn't like they're dumping half their sales into rental fleets (they sold about 27k 3-series in the US through July, and about 45k 3 and 4 series cars combined).

I get what Acura is trying to do, but anyone who looks into it will know they're just trying to put lipstick on the pig that is their sedan sales (and will remain so as long as they're Accord+ vehicles).

SC

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 21:06
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notyper wrote:
https://www.bmwgroupfleet.com/

This is where BMW does a lot of their "fleet" sales. It's a great program if your company participates, but it isn't like they're dumping half their sales into rental fleets (they sold about 27k 3-series in the US through July, and about 45k 3 and 4 series cars combined).

I get what Acura is trying to do, but anyone who looks into it will know they're just trying to put lipstick on the pig that is their sedan sales (and will remain so as long as they're Accord+ vehicles).

SC


^^This


HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2018 23:43
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I've always been puzzled/amused by this "retail sales" stuff. Ok, I am one of the people who supports Honda when they have a product I like, at the retail level. But I am not exactly sure of the point they are trying to make.

Nowhere else in business does anybody go this marketing route. Are we supposed to assume that Motel 6 is a great hotel chain because more people who are paying their own way choose it over the Ritz Carlton mostly business clientele? After all their (Ritz Carlton)rooms are filled mostly by guests who were sent there by their company's travel agents.

It's probably time they cut out this self serving crap. A sale is a sale is a sale and if they choose not to play in certain markets, then so be it.

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 03:18
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HondaForever wrote:
I've always been puzzled/amused by this "retail sales" stuff. Ok, I am one of the people who supports Honda when they have a product I like, at the retail level. But I am not exactly sure of the point they are trying to make.

Nowhere else in business does anybody go this marketing route. Are we supposed to assume that Motel 6 is a great hotel chain because more people who are paying their own way choose it over the Ritz Carlton mostly business clientele? After all their (Ritz Carlton)rooms are filled mostly by guests who were sent there by their company's travel agents.

It's probably time they cut out this self serving crap. A sale is a sale is a sale and if they choose not to play in certain markets, then so be it.



Hahha, good one HondaForever!

I love your Motel6 comparison.

Same in Sweden, Audis,BMW are no good, since most don't pay with own money, but rather drive them as a company benefit car... good cars like Hyundais on the contrarary are paid with their own money.

vh2k
Profile for vh2k
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 04:37
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HondaForever wrote:
I've always been puzzled/amused by this "retail sales" stuff. Ok, I am one of the people who supports Honda when they have a product I like, at the retail level. But I am not exactly sure of the point they are trying to make.


It’s a talking point to the analyst and investor community.

Fleet sales tend to be a low margin way to move units. Fleet sales are a weak area for Honda... so the spin is: we don’t tend to focus on fleet because, given a finite amount of production, we would rather direct those units to the retail consumer where the margins are higher. It’s self serving, but also a fair and reasonable point.

So, the implication is: Honda’s “retail focus” allows us to be more profitable over the long term.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 09:08
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HondaForever wrote:
I've always been puzzled/amused by this "retail sales" stuff. Ok, I am one of the people who supports Honda when they have a product I like, at the retail level. But I am not exactly sure of the point they are trying to make.

Nowhere else in business does anybody go this marketing route. Are we supposed to assume that Motel 6 is a great hotel chain because more people who are paying their own way choose it over the Ritz Carlton mostly business clientele? After all their (Ritz Carlton)rooms are filled mostly by guests who were sent there by their company's travel agents.

It's probably time they cut out this self serving crap. A sale is a sale is a sale and if they choose not to play in certain markets, then so be it.



Yeah but Ritz Carlton doesn’t report the exact number of nights and rooms sold every month. Car sales reports are assumed by the general public to be on a level playing field but they aren’t.

Honda is saying that a sale isn’t a sale. And they’re right in the case of rental fleet sales - Enterprise going to FCA or Toyota and saying they’re going to buy 50,000 cars isn’t the same as 50,000 individual people going to a dealership to buy a car.

I don’t think that is what BMW is doing necessarily - but part of the point is that we don’t know since everything is presented as being equal when in fact it might not be. And it becomes a grey area - if 3M or Exxon or some company pays for a BMW lease through the program highlighted by SC then a person still goes to the dealer even though they are buying through a “fleet” program. Same with stuff like selling “work” trucks/vans or government fleets. Honda is saying that retail sales to individuals are their focus and that they’re pretty good at it, that’s sort of their line in the sand I guess.

Also since Honda does this across their entire lineup I don’t think doing it for the TLX is all that bad or craven.

And this is an issue across sales reporting; I think more transparency across sales reports would be a good thing - I think companies are afraid of losing their marketing edge and/or affecting their investors.

But other companies could turn fleets into marketing advantages. If Ford came out and said hey we sold 1,000 F150s to Duke Energy this month because we make the best work truck. If Toyota came out and said hey Walmart’s district and corporate cars are only going to be Toyota’s from now on because we have the lowest maintenance costs. Even rental fleets, if Nissan said hey we sold 10,000 Altima’s built by our associates in Tennessee and Mississippi to Enterprise.

I always make a point of it because I just want to know; I think car manufacturing and sales are interesting and I’d enjoy more info about who and/or what is buying cars.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 09:13
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The context is, COMMERCIAL fleets (that include very basic, rugged work trucks with aftersales support) is a huge and profitable market for Ford. Margins are very high in that market.

The problem are low-margin fleet sales, to rental car companies and company vehicles. These not only flood the market with cars significantly below MSRP, but also affects resale. You may ask yourself "well, a sale is a sale, who cares?" but a 1-3% rate of return is not healthy for any automaker and affects how they can price their cars for the retail market, and down the road. Ask yourself: If you can find a used BMW for so much less than a new one and they are so plentiful, why would you ever pay MSRP for a new one? This is one of many factors that got the Big 3 into trouble.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 10:24
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CarPhreakD wrote:
The problem are low-margin fleet sales, to rental car companies and company vehicles. These not only flood the market with cars significantly below MSRP, but also affects resale. You may ask yourself "well, a sale is a sale, who cares?" but a 1-3% rate of return is not healthy for any automaker and affects how they can price their cars for the retail market, and down the road. Ask yourself: If you can find a used BMW for so much less than a new one and they are so plentiful, why would you ever pay MSRP for a new one? This is one of many factors that got the Big 3 into trouble.

Your point is very well taken, but it seems to me you are talking about what are and should be internal marketing decisions aimed at achieving certain short and long term goals for Honda, all quite worthwhile, but which are of no interest to the customer except perhaps an enthusiast like Fitdad.

But these are no different from other internal decisions such as the thickness of sheet metal used on the body or the quality of the paint used to cover same which will also affect sale prices and long term market perceptions of the product. It would be like if every time the sales numbers come out they point out that they used better paint and more durable transmissions (joke) and try to subtly use them to explain why their sales are lower than the next guy. Customers don't need or care about this. And if analysts do, I am sure they have conference calls with them where they can go into these gory details. Sorry, but I see it as nothing but an attempt to give themselves some medal of their own creation, and as far as I am concerned, it's wearing thin.


honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 10:29
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IMHO, it doesn’t matter how you slice sales numbers. Currently in this class, I think the Guilia is the most interesting, quality concerns notwithstanding.

I never understood bragging about sales numbers in the luxury market. Accounting-wise you would care about turning a profit with each sale of a model, but apart from that, trying to push out cars just dilutes the brand. It’s not like in the mainstream where you try to recoup costs through volume and compete for market share. I think bragging about sales numbers is a desperate ploy to show significance in this market rather than letting the cars and per sale profit (indicative of cachet and desirability) speak for themselves.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 10:49
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Unless I am mistaken, Honda as a company has chosen not to participate in any business setup involving selling cars to businesses or fleet meaning they are focused on selling their products directly to customers. So if the Acura TLX sold more vehicles directly to customers in the first half of 2018 than the BMW 3-series and the Audi A4, I think that's a pretty big deal given how down Acura sedans have been for some time now. And as I shared in another thread, the reality that more retail customers have chosen the TLX over BMW and Audi shows that luxury sedan consumers are not hung up on the whole RWD-Architecture debate as some on here seem to suggest. To me the reason that the TLX is selling better than the RLX and ILX is pretty straightforward. Acura has a solid exterior design on the TLX and a nice and current interior that offers better space than the 3-Series and A4. The addition of the A-spec model also gives Acura more emotional appeal for consumers. This is the same formula that is helping the new RDX reach record sales. Now Acura's challenge is replicating this success with the RLX and ILX and possibly a true flaghship that is the size of the 7-series.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 11:56
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HondaForever wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The problem are low-margin fleet sales, to rental car companies and company vehicles. These not only flood the market with cars significantly below MSRP, but also affects resale. You may ask yourself "well, a sale is a sale, who cares?" but a 1-3% rate of return is not healthy for any automaker and affects how they can price their cars for the retail market, and down the road. Ask yourself: If you can find a used BMW for so much less than a new one and they are so plentiful, why would you ever pay MSRP for a new one? This is one of many factors that got the Big 3 into trouble.

Your point is very well taken, but it seems to me you are talking about what are and should be internal marketing decisions aimed at achieving certain short and long term goals for Honda, all quite worthwhile, but which are of no interest to the customer except perhaps an enthusiast like Fitdad.

But these are no different from other internal decisions such as the thickness of sheet metal used on the body or the quality of the paint used to cover same which will also affect sale prices and long term market perceptions of the product. It would be like if every time the sales numbers come out they point out that they used better paint and more durable transmissions (joke) and try to subtly use them to explain why their sales are lower than the next guy. Customers don't need or care about this. And if analysts do, I am sure they have conference calls with them where they can go into these gory details. Sorry, but I see it as nothing but an attempt to give themselves some medal of their own creation, and as far as I am concerned, it's wearing thin.




I'm not sure I follow. If you are selling more cars via retail than other companies, it means that your cars are more desirable to more individuals. Fleet sales aren't as concerned about vehicle desirability as they are about volume discounts. Fleet sales are the excuse for what would otherwise have been poor sales.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 11:59
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honduh wrote:
IMHO, it doesn’t matter how you slice sales numbers. Currently in this class, I think the Guilia is the most interesting, quality concerns notwithstanding.

I never understood bragging about sales numbers in the luxury market. Accounting-wise you would care about turning a profit with each sale of a model, but apart from that, trying to push out cars just dilutes the brand. It’s not like in the mainstream where you try to recoup costs through volume and compete for market share. I think bragging about sales numbers is a desperate ploy to show significance in this market rather than letting the cars and per sale profit (indicative of cachet and desirability) speak for themselves.



This is kind of true, but volumes are still an indicator of how desirable a car is (and that, plus per sale profit as you put it is very important for automakers). It's only a 'big deal' because Acura's products and corresponding sales figures have been going to shit over the past decade when in the mid 2000s they were regularly challenging BMW for sedan sales in the US; but they're eager to show that they've been making some sort of progress lately. The TLX's sales are inconsequential at this point, but they've done very well on the new RDX.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 12:10
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bnilhome wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, Honda as a company has chosen not to participate in any business setup involving selling cars to businesses or fleet meaning they are focused on selling their products directly to customers. So if the Acura TLX sold more vehicles directly to customers in the first half of 2018 than the BMW 3-series and the Audi A4, I think that's a pretty big deal given how down Acura sedans have been for some time now. And as I shared in another thread, the reality that more retail customers have chosen the TLX over BMW and Audi shows that luxury sedan consumers are not hung up on the whole RWD-Architecture debate as some on here seem to suggest. To me the reason that the TLX is selling better than the RLX and ILX is pretty straightforward. Acura has a solid exterior design on the TLX and a nice and current interior that offers better space than the 3-Series and A4. The addition of the A-spec model also gives Acura more emotional appeal for consumers. This is the same formula that is helping the new RDX reach record sales. Now Acura's challenge is replicating this success with the RLX and ILX and possibly a true flaghship that is the size of the 7-series.


You sound like an advertisement.

I highly doubt that the RLX will ever amount to much, as it is the perennial loser. Even if the company spends Hyundai levels of money to get a LexusGS pleasing big engined, rear wheel drive sedan... I think the ship has long sailed. They'd be better off making the mother of all SUVs. As for the ILX- I'd get rid of it, it hurts the brand.

A77X
Profile for A77X
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 12:34
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Arent 3 series sales also down as the old 3 series coupe is now the 4 series? Honda dealers by the way sell Hondas to rental companies with buy back plans - usually 6 months to a year. Not huge numbers but lets not pretend there are no fleet sales. Some dealers have a fleet manager.
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 12:55
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A77X wrote:
Arent 3 series sales also down as the old 3 series coupe is now the 4 series? Honda dealers by the way sell Hondas to rental companies with buy back plans - usually 6 months to a year. Not huge numbers but lets not pretend there are no fleet sales. Some dealers have a fleet manager.

Was just thinking the same - and that 3ers have been migrating over to this hotness:


bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 13:30
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CarPhreakD wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, Honda as a company has chosen not to participate in any business setup involving selling cars to businesses or fleet meaning they are focused on selling their products directly to customers. So if the Acura TLX sold more vehicles directly to customers in the first half of 2018 than the BMW 3-series and the Audi A4, I think that's a pretty big deal given how down Acura sedans have been for some time now. And as I shared in another thread, the reality that more retail customers have chosen the TLX over BMW and Audi shows that luxury sedan consumers are not hung up on the whole RWD-Architecture debate as some on here seem to suggest. To me the reason that the TLX is selling better than the RLX and ILX is pretty straightforward. Acura has a solid exterior design on the TLX and a nice and current interior that offers better space than the 3-Series and A4. The addition of the A-spec model also gives Acura more emotional appeal for consumers. This is the same formula that is helping the new RDX reach record sales. Now Acura's challenge is replicating this success with the RLX and ILX and possibly a true flaghship that is the size of the 7-series.


You sound like an advertisement.

I highly doubt that the RLX will ever amount to much, as it is the perennial loser. Even if the company spends Hyundai levels of money to get a LexusGS pleasing big engined, rear wheel drive sedan... I think the ship has long sailed. They'd be better off making the mother of all SUVs. As for the ILX- I'd get rid of it, it hurts the brand.



Well for starters I would potentially get rid of the RLX naming if it has a bad taste aligned to it, and bring back Legend for the replacement, or save the legend for the true flagship that could be a 7-series. As for the optimism, I think there are some good signs we can finally be optimistic after several years of malaise.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 14:44
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CarPhreakD wrote:
honduh wrote:
IMHO, it doesn’t matter how you slice sales numbers. Currently in this class, I think the Guilia is the most interesting, quality concerns notwithstanding.

I never understood bragging about sales numbers in the luxury market. Accounting-wise you would care about turning a profit with each sale of a model, but apart from that, trying to push out cars just dilutes the brand. It’s not like in the mainstream where you try to recoup costs through volume and compete for market share. I think bragging about sales numbers is a desperate ploy to show significance in this market rather than letting the cars and per sale profit (indicative of cachet and desirability) speak for themselves.



This is kind of true, but volumes are still an indicator of how desirable a car is (and that, plus per sale profit as you put it is very important for automakers). It's only a 'big deal' because Acura's products and corresponding sales figures have been going to shit over the past decade when in the mid 2000s they were regularly challenging BMW for sedan sales in the US; but they're eager to show that they've been making some sort of progress lately. The TLX's sales are inconsequential at this point, but they've done very well on the new RDX.


CPD, I think it is fair to use volume as a metric of desirability. But then again, as is subject of this thread, the true meaning behind the numbers can be twisted. In the context you cited such as Acura’s historic sales trends, it is a fair way to show how their sedans have lost their competitiveness.

But I was referring to when luxury brands focus too much on volume. This has driven BMW for instance to dilute their brand focus, and launch some pointless models. As much envy as there might be in their overall market position, they also have some spectacular duds. They maybe riding high on their reputation, but I am also not sure about their future. When you try to be “best selling” you can start making Camry’s instead of brand defining models (unless your intent is to make an “everybody”-mobile). I think that’s why I find the strict sales argument oxymoronic in the luxury market where you are trying build something unique and aspirational. You might be selling a lot because indeed you’ve made something people want (aspirational) or you’ve made something that happens to fit the right “needs” (misnomer in luxury but practical things like reliability or overall purchase price that tend towards more logical decision making). Maybe it’s a bit of both. Which is more important? How do you quantify that?

I guess it’s most important, volume-wise, that you meet your internal targets. But beyond that, I don’t think for instance Porsche set out to be the “Camry” of sports cars. It just so happens they are able to play to a very strong fan base that was cultivated over decades of consistently (for the most part) selling the brand.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 15:09
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honduh wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
honduh wrote:
IMHO, it doesn’t matter how you slice sales numbers. Currently in this class, I think the Guilia is the most interesting, quality concerns notwithstanding.

I never understood bragging about sales numbers in the luxury market. Accounting-wise you would care about turning a profit with each sale of a model, but apart from that, trying to push out cars just dilutes the brand. It’s not like in the mainstream where you try to recoup costs through volume and compete for market share. I think bragging about sales numbers is a desperate ploy to show significance in this market rather than letting the cars and per sale profit (indicative of cachet and desirability) speak for themselves.



This is kind of true, but volumes are still an indicator of how desirable a car is (and that, plus per sale profit as you put it is very important for automakers). It's only a 'big deal' because Acura's products and corresponding sales figures have been going to shit over the past decade when in the mid 2000s they were regularly challenging BMW for sedan sales in the US; but they're eager to show that they've been making some sort of progress lately. The TLX's sales are inconsequential at this point, but they've done very well on the new RDX.


CPD, I think it is fair to use volume as a metric of desirability. But then again, as is subject of this thread, the true meaning behind the numbers can be twisted. In the context you cited such as Acura’s historic sales trends, it is a fair way to show how their sedans have lost their competitiveness.

But I was referring to when luxury brands focus too much on volume. This has driven BMW for instance to dilute their brand focus, and launch some pointless models. As much envy as there might be in their overall market position, they also have some spectacular duds. They maybe riding high on their reputation, but I am also not sure about their future. When you try to be “best selling” you can start making Camry’s instead of brand defining models (unless your intent is to make an “everybody”-mobile). I think that’s why I find the strict sales argument oxymoronic in the luxury market where you are trying build something unique and aspirational. You might be selling a lot because indeed you’ve made something people want (aspirational) or you’ve made something that happens to fit the right “needs” (misnomer in luxury but practical things like reliability or overall purchase price that tend towards more logical decision making). Maybe it’s a bit of both. Which is more important? How do you quantify that?

I guess it’s most important, volume-wise, that you meet your internal targets. But beyond that, I don’t think for instance Porsche set out to be the “Camry” of sports cars. It just so happens they are able to play to a very strong fan base that was cultivated over decades of consistently (for the most part) selling the brand.



I think the most important aspect of looking at sales volume is that it reflects market demand and what consumers are seeking in a vehicle segment. In the case of Acura, there is a reason that the RDX, MDX and TLX sell well while the ILX and RLX are not. There is something the 3 successful vehicles are offering in their segment that the other 2 are not. And this can be extrapolated to comparing Acura with other brands. Part of the equation is certainly brand loyalty within a segment, but I think there are vehicle-specific features that contribute to differences in sales volume between manufacturers.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 16:26
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CarPhreakD wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, Honda as a company has chosen not to participate in any business setup involving selling cars to businesses or fleet meaning they are focused on selling their products directly to customers. So if the Acura TLX sold more vehicles directly to customers in the first half of 2018 than the BMW 3-series and the Audi A4, I think that's a pretty big deal given how down Acura sedans have been for some time now. And as I shared in another thread, the reality that more retail customers have chosen the TLX over BMW and Audi shows that luxury sedan consumers are not hung up on the whole RWD-Architecture debate as some on here seem to suggest. To me the reason that the TLX is selling better than the RLX and ILX is pretty straightforward. Acura has a solid exterior design on the TLX and a nice and current interior that offers better space than the 3-Series and A4. The addition of the A-spec model also gives Acura more emotional appeal for consumers. This is the same formula that is helping the new RDX reach record sales. Now Acura's challenge is replicating this success with the RLX and ILX and possibly a true flaghship that is the size of the 7-series.


You sound like an advertisement.

I highly doubt that the RLX will ever amount to much, as it is the perennial loser. Even if the company spends Hyundai levels of money to get a LexusGS pleasing big engined, rear wheel drive sedan... I think the ship has long sailed. They'd be better off making the mother of all SUVs. As for the ILX- I'd get rid of it, it hurts the brand.



I don't think so.

If Acura were to do a proper full on Tier 1 luxury flagship sedan they would likely have success, much more so then the RLX. They can't call it the RLX. Bring back the Legend name for a real flagship. If Genesis manages to outsell the RLX with its production/dealership limited G90 Acura could certainly be much more successful with a flagship if they don't Honda+/half ass it. Same with a mid level competitor.

A big stonkin SUV likely would not do well for Acura. People don't associate Honda/Acura with big expensive SUV's like they do with Caddy, Lincoln, and even Lexus and Infiniti to some degree and even the Lexus and Infiniti big SUV's don't sell in huge numbers. Acura would still need a unique platform for it and unique engine which sounds like a total waste if they can only use it for one vehicle. A RWD sedan platform could spawn numerous sedan/coupe models Acura needs.

A larger more luxurious/powerful version of the MDX would make much more sense, keep the same basic formula but make it a little bigger, more power, more luxury, don't increase the price too much. If the price is not too much more SUV buyers likely won't care too much about what platform it is on, they would if it was priced much higher though.

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 17:38
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A77X wrote:
Arent 3 series sales also down as the old 3 series coupe is now the 4 series? Honda dealers by the way sell Hondas to rental companies with buy back plans - usually 6 months to a year. Not huge numbers but lets not pretend there are no fleet sales. Some dealers have a fleet manager.

Also around here most zipcars are either Civics or Fits so they must have one a contract. I will say though no where as much as others but can't sit and assume 0 sales go to fleet.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 18:42
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CarPhreakD wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The problem are low-margin fleet sales, to rental car companies and company vehicles. These not only flood the market with cars significantly below MSRP, but also affects resale. You may ask yourself "well, a sale is a sale, who cares?" but a 1-3% rate of return is not healthy for any automaker and affects how they can price their cars for the retail market, and down the road. Ask yourself: If you can find a used BMW for so much less than a new one and they are so plentiful, why would you ever pay MSRP for a new one? This is one of many factors that got the Big 3 into trouble.

Your point is very well taken, but it seems to me you are talking about what are and should be internal marketing decisions aimed at achieving certain short and long term goals for Honda, all quite worthwhile, but which are of no interest to the customer except perhaps an enthusiast like Fitdad.

But these are no different from other internal decisions such as the thickness of sheet metal used on the body or the quality of the paint used to cover same which will also affect sale prices and long term market perceptions of the product. It would be like if every time the sales numbers come out they point out that they used better paint and more durable transmissions (joke) and try to subtly use them to explain why their sales are lower than the next guy. Customers don't need or care about this. And if analysts do, I am sure they have conference calls with them where they can go into these gory details. Sorry, but I see it as nothing but an attempt to give themselves some medal of their own creation, and as far as I am concerned, it's wearing thin.




I'm not sure I follow. If you are selling more cars via retail than other companies, it means that your cars are more desirable to more individuals. Fleet sales aren't as concerned about vehicle desirability as they are about volume discounts. Fleet sales are the excuse for what would otherwise have been poor sales.


My point is that you can parse the numbers anyway you want given any set of sales figures and claim victory. Today, it's "retail sales". What happens tomorrow when they lose that crown and it just happens that most customers buying a TLX earn $200k+ or higher than their competitors, would we then be told that all is well because the TLX sells more to high earners than any other brand, even while the competition is selling twice as many cars? Would that then be the new marketing shtick?

I am old enough to remember when the Accord was the best selling car in America, period, I suspect including fleet sales. I just wish they could get back to those days and forget about all this constant parsing of the sales numbers.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2018 23:05
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HondaForever wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The problem are low-margin fleet sales, to rental car companies and company vehicles. These not only flood the market with cars significantly below MSRP, but also affects resale. You may ask yourself "well, a sale is a sale, who cares?" but a 1-3% rate of return is not healthy for any automaker and affects how they can price their cars for the retail market, and down the road. Ask yourself: If you can find a used BMW for so much less than a new one and they are so plentiful, why would you ever pay MSRP for a new one? This is one of many factors that got the Big 3 into trouble.

Your point is very well taken, but it seems to me you are talking about what are and should be internal marketing decisions aimed at achieving certain short and long term goals for Honda, all quite worthwhile, but which are of no interest to the customer except perhaps an enthusiast like Fitdad.

But these are no different from other internal decisions such as the thickness of sheet metal used on the body or the quality of the paint used to cover same which will also affect sale prices and long term market perceptions of the product. It would be like if every time the sales numbers come out they point out that they used better paint and more durable transmissions (joke) and try to subtly use them to explain why their sales are lower than the next guy. Customers don't need or care about this. And if analysts do, I am sure they have conference calls with them where they can go into these gory details. Sorry, but I see it as nothing but an attempt to give themselves some medal of their own creation, and as far as I am concerned, it's wearing thin.




I'm not sure I follow. If you are selling more cars via retail than other companies, it means that your cars are more desirable to more individuals. Fleet sales aren't as concerned about vehicle desirability as they are about volume discounts. Fleet sales are the excuse for what would otherwise have been poor sales.


My point is that you can parse the numbers anyway you want given any set of sales figures and claim victory. Today, it's "retail sales". What happens tomorrow when they lose that crown and it just happens that most customers buying a TLX earn $200k+ or higher than their competitors, would we then be told that all is well because the TLX sells more to high earners than any other brand, even while the competition is selling twice as many cars? Would that then be the new marketing shtick?

I am old enough to remember when the Accord was the best selling car in America, period, I suspect including fleet sales. I just wish they could get back to those days and forget about all this constant parsing of the sales numbers.



Honda making claims about retail sales is not a new thing. If you're that old, you would surely remember the same claims Honda made about said Accord compared to the Camry.

The parsing of sales figures is for investors, since Honda is a publicly traded company.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-03-2018 10:31
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bnilhome wrote:
I think the most important aspect of looking at sales volume is that it reflects market demand and what consumers are seeking in a vehicle segment. In the case of Acura, there is a reason that the RDX, MDX and TLX sell well while the ILX and RLX are not. There is something the 3 successful vehicles are offering in their segment that the other 2 are not. And this can be extrapolated to comparing Acura with other brands. Part of the equation is certainly brand loyalty within a segment, but I think there are vehicle-specific features that contribute to differences in sales volume between manufacturers.


The failings of the ILX and RLX have been discussed ad nauseam, so there's not much to say about that.

I would be cautious in reading too much into sales numbers of the other three models that you cite.

Let's take the new RDX as an example. For all intents and purposes, it looks to be solid and well executed. I am sure it will be a sales success for Acura. I suspect though part of the appeal is valuation relative to competitors. It is priced fairly. However, if Acura were to pull a Cadillac/de Nysschen type of move and shift the price too high you will lose many buyers. Does that mean that compact luxury SUVs cannot command higher prices for similar equipment levels? Right or wrong, a Macan for instance starts off at a higher price. The latter also offers more performance in certain trims that are beyond the capabilities of many other SUVs, so it helps justify the higher prices. The Macan might not sell in the same numbers as the RDX, but it sure is printing boatloads of money for Porsche and they are doing just fine. That is why I said previously the numbers game is oxymoronic in the luxury market.

So I think the sales of models like the RDX are caveated with the brand's position in the market and how they consequently valuate what they sell. Incidentally (and I can't help but use as an illustration), the ILX is another telling sign. It is based on the 9th Gen Civic (which was not appealing in any way), and yet priced beyond what Acura can command.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-03-2018 10:37
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honduh wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
I think the most important aspect of looking at sales volume is that it reflects market demand and what consumers are seeking in a vehicle segment. In the case of Acura, there is a reason that the RDX, MDX and TLX sell well while the ILX and RLX are not. There is something the 3 successful vehicles are offering in their segment that the other 2 are not. And this can be extrapolated to comparing Acura with other brands. Part of the equation is certainly brand loyalty within a segment, but I think there are vehicle-specific features that contribute to differences in sales volume between manufacturers.


The failings of the ILX and RLX have been discussed ad nauseam, so there's not much to say about that.

I would be cautious in reading too much into sales numbers of the other three models that you cite.

Let's take the new RDX as an example. For all intents and purposes, it looks to be solid and well executed. I am sure it will be a sales success for Acura. I suspect though part of the appeal is valuation relative to competitors. It is priced fairly. However, if Acura were to pull a Cadillac/de Nysschen type of move and shift the price too high you will lose many buyers. Does that mean that compact luxury SUVs cannot command higher prices for similar equipment levels? Right or wrong, a Macan for instance starts off at a higher price. The latter also offers more performance in certain trims that are beyond the capabilities of many other SUVs, so it helps justify the higher prices. The Macan might not sell in the same numbers as the RDX, but it sure is printing boatloads of money for Porsche and they are doing just fine. That is why I said previously the numbers game is oxymoronic in the luxury market.

So I think the sales of models like the RDX are caveated with the brand's position in the market and how they consequently valuate what they sell. Incidentally (and I can't help but use as an illustration), the ILX is another telling sign. It is based on the 9th Gen Civic (which was not appealing in any way), and yet priced beyond what Acura can command.


Excellent point.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-03-2018 10:58
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CarPhreakD wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The problem are low-margin fleet sales, to rental car companies and company vehicles. These not only flood the market with cars significantly below MSRP, but also affects resale. You may ask yourself "well, a sale is a sale, who cares?" but a 1-3% rate of return is not healthy for any automaker and affects how they can price their cars for the retail market, and down the road. Ask yourself: If you can find a used BMW for so much less than a new one and they are so plentiful, why would you ever pay MSRP for a new one? This is one of many factors that got the Big 3 into trouble.

Your point is very well taken, but it seems to me you are talking about what are and should be internal marketing decisions aimed at achieving certain short and long term goals for Honda, all quite worthwhile, but which are of no interest to the customer except perhaps an enthusiast like Fitdad.

But these are no different from other internal decisions such as the thickness of sheet metal used on the body or the quality of the paint used to cover same which will also affect sale prices and long term market perceptions of the product. It would be like if every time the sales numbers come out they point out that they used better paint and more durable transmissions (joke) and try to subtly use them to explain why their sales are lower than the next guy. Customers don't need or care about this. And if analysts do, I am sure they have conference calls with them where they can go into these gory details. Sorry, but I see it as nothing but an attempt to give themselves some medal of their own creation, and as far as I am concerned, it's wearing thin.




I'm not sure I follow. If you are selling more cars via retail than other companies, it means that your cars are more desirable to more individuals. Fleet sales aren't as concerned about vehicle desirability as they are about volume discounts. Fleet sales are the excuse for what would otherwise have been poor sales.


My point is that you can parse the numbers anyway you want given any set of sales figures and claim victory. Today, it's "retail sales". What happens tomorrow when they lose that crown and it just happens that most customers buying a TLX earn $200k+ or higher than their competitors, would we then be told that all is well because the TLX sells more to high earners than any other brand, even while the competition is selling twice as many cars? Would that then be the new marketing shtick?

I am old enough to remember when the Accord was the best selling car in America, period, I suspect including fleet sales. I just wish they could get back to those days and forget about all this constant parsing of the sales numbers.



The parsing of sales figures is for investors, since Honda is a publicly traded company.


So let me grant you your point. If this is correct, then one would assume that they'll provide similar parsing of sales figures for ALL their cars in these press releases. So perhaps you can show me where in their press release they show the "retail sales" position of the ILX or the RLX.

When you selectively present only the data that makes you look good, it's propagandizing. Nothing more. If I can see through that, then I think most serious investors can. Which gets back to my original point. Who do they think they are fooling?

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-03-2018 11:12
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honduh wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
I think the most important aspect of looking at sales volume is that it reflects market demand and what consumers are seeking in a vehicle segment. In the case of Acura, there is a reason that the RDX, MDX and TLX sell well while the ILX and RLX are not. There is something the 3 successful vehicles are offering in their segment that the other 2 are not. And this can be extrapolated to comparing Acura with other brands. Part of the equation is certainly brand loyalty within a segment, but I think there are vehicle-specific features that contribute to differences in sales volume between manufacturers.


The failings of the ILX and RLX have been discussed ad nauseam, so there's not much to say about that.

I would be cautious in reading too much into sales numbers of the other three models that you cite.

Let's take the new RDX as an example. For all intents and purposes, it looks to be solid and well executed. I am sure it will be a sales success for Acura. I suspect though part of the appeal is valuation relative to competitors. It is priced fairly. However, if Acura were to pull a Cadillac/de Nysschen type of move and shift the price too high you will lose many buyers. Does that mean that compact luxury SUVs cannot command higher prices for similar equipment levels? Right or wrong, a Macan for instance starts off at a higher price. The latter also offers more performance in certain trims that are beyond the capabilities of many other SUVs, so it helps justify the higher prices. The Macan might not sell in the same numbers as the RDX, but it sure is printing boatloads of money for Porsche and they are doing just fine. That is why I said previously the numbers game is oxymoronic in the luxury market.

So I think the sales of models like the RDX are caveated with the brand's position in the market and how they consequently valuate what they sell. Incidentally (and I can't help but use as an illustration), the ILX is another telling sign. It is based on the 9th Gen Civic (which was not appealing in any way), and yet priced beyond what Acura can command.



Sure pricing and packing are important with the value proposition any company puts forward, but I would not discount the relative sales of the TLX, RDX, and MDX vis-à-vis the competition. Suggesting they are not as strong of a product because they are priced less seems like a stretch to me. Also, when it comes to consumers sentiment in the luxury market, some buyers are more concerned about perceived status of buying some luxury brands and would choose to pay more for a vehicle that offers the same as a product that may offer similar quality/features but is not as much of a status symbol. Other buyers do factor in value and do not care about the status of owning a Mercedes vs an Acura or Genesis. For example, if the new G70 were to outsell the 3-series, I don't think it would be fair to state tha the only reason the G70 had higher numbers was a result of steep discounts relative to the G70.

As for the RDX and being priced a bit less than its competitors, I also think its important to look at comparison tests that are not placing much emphasis on pricing. Most reviews have found the new RDX to be matched with the Q5 in terms of acceleration and offer a great driving experience as the Q5 and X3. The interior also has been on par or ahead of the German counterparts. It's just icing on the cake that the RDX can offer more standard features for the money.


 
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