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  TOV News > American Honda Reports July Sales Results > > Re: TLX outselling 3-series?

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owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2018 00:45
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bnilhome wrote:
owequitit wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
You are arguing about margins and the importance of those to describe the quality of the finished product. I have never discussed margins, so if you feel that is important, that's fine, but to me that does nothing to address the reality that the TLX has been competitive with the 3-Series and A4 for the first half of 2018. You have went on and on about how horrible Acura sedans are, and they could never compete with European models, yet clear sales figures show otherwise. If you want to state that is solely because of price, that is fine, but as I asked you previously, if the G70 were to outsell the 3-series or come close to equal volume, should we assume that is because the G70 is priced cheaper?



1) Asking if you work for Honda is not insulting. It is a legitimate question. If someone asks me if I work for Honda, I don't get defensive and run around the thread complaining about being insulted, I say: "no, I do not work for Honda in any capacity."

2) If you are going to insult me, at least have the decency to spell my name correctly. It is owequitit. All lower case and only 1 t at the end.

Also, get over the connection to Lexusgs because we are nowhere near the same person and that is just another smokescreen you keep using to avoid having to deal with the actual data that you don't want to discuss.

3) I am talking about "margins" and all of the other data you don't like to prove that your points about "fleet sales", "incentives" and any other claims you concoct to try and justify the garbage that is Acura's sedan lineup is complete and total bunk.

4) So far, the only data that shows that Acura had more "retail sales" than BMW is Acura's own data that was provided to Jeff. So in the interest of transparency and data, where did Honda get their numbers? I certainly can't find any release from BMW that breaks out their fleet sales, so how does Honda have such sensitive information from a competitor?

Basically, what I am saying here (just so we are clear) is that I am directly questioning the validity of Acura's numbers based on lack of substantive proof.

Further, I am making the point that Acura is using even greater incentives (as a % of MSRP) to move metal than BMW is. Based on all of your "customers care about value" rants in your blind defense of Acura's cheaper prices, then it should be obvious to you how more incentives would help move more metal.

You are more than welcome to provide some credible, corroborating evidence of Acura's claims, but so far, I can't find any.



You are getting more and more defensive and now are claiming to be insulted over the spelling of your name, yet you ignore the reality that you are very confrontational with many posters on here. As for me working for Honda, I have never worked for Honda or any car company and likely never will given my current profession. We currently have an Acura and Toyota, and prior to the Toyota we had a Hyundai Santa Fe.

As for your continued focus on price and margins, this is another attempt to move the goal posts. You have consistently argued that no Acura sedan can be competitive for a host of reasons you like to rattle off, but the primary one has been that it's not built on a RWD-Architecture. My position has consistently been that the RWD-Architecture is not a core requirement for most luxury buyers, and the vehicles interior and exterior design, space, performance, and technology all are more important than the architecture. I have stated that the RLX and ILX are not selling well because of the factors I referenced above, but I said in prior threads that the TLX was more competitive because of its design, technology and performance in its segment. When you are presented with data showing that the TLX is competitive, you now want to shift the goal posts to talking about price and margins as justification for why the TLX has been selling well relative to the 3-series and A4. And as I said previously, I am going to hold you to this logic should a lesser-priced G70 sell well against the 3-series.



I'm not even a little bit defensive.

You are simply making accusations that you can't support.

Still waiting for you to actually post something substantive related to actual sales rather than running around trying to whip yourself into a frenzy about the conspiracies to make you look bad on the site.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2018 08:48
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
Hondu wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
It's about the 'average'. As Owe mentioned, there will be differences from area to area for sure. I don't really see a reason to doubt the Industry nationwide data from TrueCar. It's probably a more accurate picture of the overall industry trend than a single person's sleuthing exercise.
e.g.: If 5 of my friends say they got $10,000 off a BMW 3 series sedan, I can't really say that's representative of a nationwide trend. Got to cast a wider net.



Here is some kbb data, which they note the transaction price does not include rebates. Add the $3000 rebate, and you have more than $7000 off.

https://www.kbb.com/bmw/3-series/2018/330i/?vehicleid=430941&intent=buy-new§ion=pricing&options=8053263|true|8053640|true|8053230|true|8053653|true|8053263|true|8053640|true|8053230|true



https://www.kbb.com/acura/tlx/2018/35-w-technology-pkg--a-spec-pkg/?vehicleid=428866&intent=buy-new

It looks like the TLX and 330i are within about $1000 of each other on the "Fair Market Price" from KBB; as far as discounted amount goes.

You can chalk it up to poor negotiating, but the reality is that not everybody has the leverage to negotiate more. You are going to be able to leverage a much better deal in a large metro area with a lot of competition from brands and in places like LA, you will also have even more leverage because of alternative fuel vehicles, etc that may not even be an option in other markets. Then you deal with a lack of dealers, a smaller inventory or more specific requirements (special order packages, MT, etc. NONE of which Acura offers) and that will also skew the data.

What is interesting is that "out of pocket" five year ownership costs are within a couple hundred bucks of each other, but the BMW squarely loses on depreciation (which is well known with German cars). However, the consumer doesn't have to absorb most of that depreciation since most new cars are leased anyway.

You also mentioned the $3000 lease cash which is specifically mentioned on KBB's site, but then again, their offered financing is 3% higher than Acura's, so it seems they are putting money in different places. Acura also has the $500 and $750, college and military rebates, respectively, which BMW doesn't seem to match.

Also, according to:

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers/lease.2018-330i-Sedan.lvbmw.html?modal=special-offers-legal

The $3000 lease cash is already included in the calculated lease payments.

According to Acura:

https://www.acura.com/tools/current-luxury-car-suv-offers-leasing?zipcode=89139&vehiclemodelseries=tlx&offer=090111c081bfd8cc-UB3F3KJW

Acura is offering a $409 lease on the TLX SH-AWD with about $1300 less down. They are also charging less per mile over the lease mileage (both are reduced from 12k per year).

The bottom line is that with links to both Truecar and KBB, as well as links to BMW and Acura's programs themselves, there is no credible evidence that BMW is "dumping" cars into fleets in order to maintain their volume. Their "fleet" program is actually quite expensive relative to what is being asserted (rental car level fleet deals) and they really aren't that far off of Acura in terms of numbers.

Of course, then there is no credible evidence thus far of Acura's claims, other than Acura's statements themselves.



Actually BMW offers $1000 for college grads.

https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/2018/deals/

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers.html

And they also offer money to military members, mainly through USAA, and active military members have their own reduced pricing.

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers/military-discount.html

Not sure why you keep mentioning BMW "dumping cars". I never said anything like that, so it must be based on other posts. Anyway, the 3 series is in its last model year, with a brand new 2019 model coming soon, so it is not surprising they are offering a lot of incentives to sell them.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2018 17:01
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
owequitit wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
You are arguing about margins and the importance of those to describe the quality of the finished product. I have never discussed margins, so if you feel that is important, that's fine, but to me that does nothing to address the reality that the TLX has been competitive with the 3-Series and A4 for the first half of 2018. You have went on and on about how horrible Acura sedans are, and they could never compete with European models, yet clear sales figures show otherwise. If you want to state that is solely because of price, that is fine, but as I asked you previously, if the G70 were to outsell the 3-series or come close to equal volume, should we assume that is because the G70 is priced cheaper?



1) Asking if you work for Honda is not insulting. It is a legitimate question. If someone asks me if I work for Honda, I don't get defensive and run around the thread complaining about being insulted, I say: "no, I do not work for Honda in any capacity."

2) If you are going to insult me, at least have the decency to spell my name correctly. It is owequitit. All lower case and only 1 t at the end.

Also, get over the connection to Lexusgs because we are nowhere near the same person and that is just another smokescreen you keep using to avoid having to deal with the actual data that you don't want to discuss.

3) I am talking about "margins" and all of the other data you don't like to prove that your points about "fleet sales", "incentives" and any other claims you concoct to try and justify the garbage that is Acura's sedan lineup is complete and total bunk.

4) So far, the only data that shows that Acura had more "retail sales" than BMW is Acura's own data that was provided to Jeff. So in the interest of transparency and data, where did Honda get their numbers? I certainly can't find any release from BMW that breaks out their fleet sales, so how does Honda have such sensitive information from a competitor?

Basically, what I am saying here (just so we are clear) is that I am directly questioning the validity of Acura's numbers based on lack of substantive proof.

Further, I am making the point that Acura is using even greater incentives (as a % of MSRP) to move metal than BMW is. Based on all of your "customers care about value" rants in your blind defense of Acura's cheaper prices, then it should be obvious to you how more incentives would help move more metal.

You are more than welcome to provide some credible, corroborating evidence of Acura's claims, but so far, I can't find any.



You are getting more and more defensive and now are claiming to be insulted over the spelling of your name, yet you ignore the reality that you are very confrontational with many posters on here. As for me working for Honda, I have never worked for Honda or any car company and likely never will given my current profession. We currently have an Acura and Toyota, and prior to the Toyota we had a Hyundai Santa Fe.

As for your continued focus on price and margins, this is another attempt to move the goal posts. You have consistently argued that no Acura sedan can be competitive for a host of reasons you like to rattle off, but the primary one has been that it's not built on a RWD-Architecture. My position has consistently been that the RWD-Architecture is not a core requirement for most luxury buyers, and the vehicles interior and exterior design, space, performance, and technology all are more important than the architecture. I have stated that the RLX and ILX are not selling well because of the factors I referenced above, but I said in prior threads that the TLX was more competitive because of its design, technology and performance in its segment. When you are presented with data showing that the TLX is competitive, you now want to shift the goal posts to talking about price and margins as justification for why the TLX has been selling well relative to the 3-series and A4. And as I said previously, I am going to hold you to this logic should a lesser-priced G70 sell well against the 3-series.



I'm not even a little bit defensive.

You are simply making accusations that you can't support.

Still waiting for you to actually post something substantive related to actual sales rather than running around trying to whip yourself into a frenzy about the conspiracies to make you look bad on the site.



Now you made me laugh with that first line. You still refuse to acknowledge that Acura has a competitive sedan that is selling well against the 3-series and other competitors, and when pressed on it, you are trying to shift the conversation to margins and price point, but when questioned on what that would mean for your favorite brand at the moment (your comment from prior discussions not mine), you resort to words like "conspiracies" and "frenzy."

From my perspective we can all question the sales figures that every single manufacturer puts out, and we can question how those are broken down (fleet vs retail vs some other category). If you choose to not believe the retail figures provided to Jeff, so be it, that is your choice, but the fact that the TLX is either ahead of the A4/3-Series or slightly behind if non-retail is factored in, you are trying to muddy the waters to ignore the fact that luxury car buyers are considering an Acura sedan....something you have spent hours trying to say could never happen because of the RWD-Architecture among other things.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 00:54
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Hondu wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Hondu wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
It's about the 'average'. As Owe mentioned, there will be differences from area to area for sure. I don't really see a reason to doubt the Industry nationwide data from TrueCar. It's probably a more accurate picture of the overall industry trend than a single person's sleuthing exercise.
e.g.: If 5 of my friends say they got $10,000 off a BMW 3 series sedan, I can't really say that's representative of a nationwide trend. Got to cast a wider net.



Here is some kbb data, which they note the transaction price does not include rebates. Add the $3000 rebate, and you have more than $7000 off.

https://www.kbb.com/bmw/3-series/2018/330i/?vehicleid=430941&intent=buy-new§ion=pricing&options=8053263|true|8053640|true|8053230|true|8053653|true|8053263|true|8053640|true|8053230|true



https://www.kbb.com/acura/tlx/2018/35-w-technology-pkg--a-spec-pkg/?vehicleid=428866&intent=buy-new

It looks like the TLX and 330i are within about $1000 of each other on the "Fair Market Price" from KBB; as far as discounted amount goes.

You can chalk it up to poor negotiating, but the reality is that not everybody has the leverage to negotiate more. You are going to be able to leverage a much better deal in a large metro area with a lot of competition from brands and in places like LA, you will also have even more leverage because of alternative fuel vehicles, etc that may not even be an option in other markets. Then you deal with a lack of dealers, a smaller inventory or more specific requirements (special order packages, MT, etc. NONE of which Acura offers) and that will also skew the data.

What is interesting is that "out of pocket" five year ownership costs are within a couple hundred bucks of each other, but the BMW squarely loses on depreciation (which is well known with German cars). However, the consumer doesn't have to absorb most of that depreciation since most new cars are leased anyway.

You also mentioned the $3000 lease cash which is specifically mentioned on KBB's site, but then again, their offered financing is 3% higher than Acura's, so it seems they are putting money in different places. Acura also has the $500 and $750, college and military rebates, respectively, which BMW doesn't seem to match.

Also, according to:

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers/lease.2018-330i-Sedan.lvbmw.html?modal=special-offers-legal

The $3000 lease cash is already included in the calculated lease payments.

According to Acura:

https://www.acura.com/tools/current-luxury-car-suv-offers-leasing?zipcode=89139&vehiclemodelseries=tlx&offer=090111c081bfd8cc-UB3F3KJW

Acura is offering a $409 lease on the TLX SH-AWD with about $1300 less down. They are also charging less per mile over the lease mileage (both are reduced from 12k per year).

The bottom line is that with links to both Truecar and KBB, as well as links to BMW and Acura's programs themselves, there is no credible evidence that BMW is "dumping" cars into fleets in order to maintain their volume. Their "fleet" program is actually quite expensive relative to what is being asserted (rental car level fleet deals) and they really aren't that far off of Acura in terms of numbers.

Of course, then there is no credible evidence thus far of Acura's claims, other than Acura's statements themselves.



Actually BMW offers $1000 for college grads.

https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/2018/deals/

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers.html

And they also offer money to military members, mainly through USAA, and active military members have their own reduced pricing.

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers/military-discount.html

Not sure why you keep mentioning BMW "dumping cars". I never said anything like that, so it must be based on other posts. Anyway, the 3 series is in its last model year, with a brand new 2019 model coming soon, so it is not surprising they are offering a lot of incentives to sell them.




Thanks for that, didn't see that listed on their page.

And no, the "dumping" statements aren't for you. It is for the people that run around these forums assuming and asserting that a "fleet sale" is automatically a loss leading sale to a rental car company a la a Nissan Versa or GM from 1999.

To be fair, all 6 or 7 of our last Honda's were technically "fleet sales" as we went through the dealers' fleet departments. But SHHHH don't tell the people drinking the Kool-Aid.

And I 100% agree with you. I am not surprised to see high incentives on the 3 series in its final year either. Interestingly, when I looked at it the other day, the hatch back sedan-y versions of the car (is it the 4 series GT? I can't remember with their new nomenclature) have quite a bit less in the way of incentives.

Like I said, not as much a refutation that BMW is using incentives as much as it is a refutation that Acura isn't also using them and "retail" sales is becoming a pretty fast and loose term.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-16-2018 08:21
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Well, short-term sales spin can’t convince me to disregard the fact that the TLX has no performance option at the level of the 340i and the sort. I can't buy what's not available.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: TLX outselling 3-series? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-18-2018 01:46
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honduh wrote:
Well, short-term sales spin can’t convince me to disregard the fact that the TLX has no performance option at the level of the 340i and the sort. I can't buy what's not available.



That is really hitting the nail on the head and DIRECTLY explains why tens of thousands of previous Acura owners have left the brand for other pastures.


 
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