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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.

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JeffX
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Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 10:29
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dashline79 wrote:
Hill assist is the best invention for modern manual cars! My last Mazda 3 had it... So convenient!


I do not like it, my 9th gen accord has it. I can see how it would be convenient for some people but it is a nuisance for me. On a hill, once you release the brake itíll hold for about a second. That second is waaay too long for a manual driver who is used to their vehicles clutch pick up and throttle response. I have to count to nearly a second before I juggle my feet

I wish there was a way to disable that feature.. maybe through HDS? Then I could revert back to using the parking brake on hills. Which seems way easier, maybe because the driver has absolute control haha




What's the actual problem that you're experiencing with the hill start assist feature, though? The brakes release immediately as you engage the clutch, so there's no interference with normal driving. It just reduces the chances of rolling backwards.

typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 10:46
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Agree, it's annoying...only holds for a second then releases. Very unnatural and only works on hills, but not on flatter ground where it will still roll back with the clutch in and brake released.

Would love to disable it too.

dashline79 wrote:
Hill assist is the best invention for modern manual cars! My last Mazda 3 had it... So convenient!


I do not like it, my 9th gen accord has it. I can see how it would be convenient for some people but it is a nuisance for me. On a hill, once you release the brake itíll hold for about a second. That second is waaay too long for a manual driver who is used to their vehicles clutch pick up and throttle response. I have to count to nearly a second before I juggle my feet

I wish there was a way to disable that feature.. maybe through HDS? Then I could revert back to using the parking brake on hills. Which seems way easier, maybe because the driver has absolute control haha




Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 10:48
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JeffX wrote:
dashline79 wrote:
Hill assist is the best invention for modern manual cars! My last Mazda 3 had it... So convenient!


I do not like it, my 9th gen accord has it. I can see how it would be convenient for some people but it is a nuisance for me. On a hill, once you release the brake itíll hold for about a second. That second is waaay too long for a manual driver who is used to their vehicles clutch pick up and throttle response. I have to count to nearly a second before I juggle my feet

I wish there was a way to disable that feature.. maybe through HDS? Then I could revert back to using the parking brake on hills. Which seems way easier, maybe because the driver has absolute control haha




What's the actual problem that you're experiencing with the hill start assist feature, though? The brakes release immediately as you engage the clutch, so there's no interference with normal driving. It just reduces the chances of rolling backwards.


Confirmed on 9th gen 6 speed manual, releases the clutch and the hill assit disengage.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 12:22
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HondaForever wrote:
So what is different about Europe or European (Australian?) drivers? I am assuming all the issues with MTs apply to those countries as well, but presumably Audi will continue to sell those there? What gives? Any of our European friends (or Australian) care to comment?


The answer in short: Many European drivers are cheapskate and suffer under a schizophrenic symptom. On the one hand, they spend lots of money for their car to have "moa powa", on the other hand they hardly spend any money for a decent automatic transmission.

Now people might say "Yeah, in Europe people can drive MTs like a pro". But nope, in daily traffic you'll regularily spot drivers missing out to start of from traffic lights - thus causing long queues and traffic jams. And talkng about traffic jams, nothing seems to tick off german drivers more than tight traffic, according to their facial expressions.

So it's not like that many people in Europe doesn't want automatics, but rather they just don't want to spent extra money for it. (So it's good that vehdub has introduced goodies like traffic sign recognition, what would you do without it? LOL)

Sasker
Profile for Sasker
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 12:37
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In North America where 95% of cars are automatic we have huge traffic jams, with people missing green lights (or other cars) because they are using their free right hand to text or browse Facefook or eat.

95% of people hate driving, and automatics allow them to focus on anything other than driving. For this majority of people, fully autonomous driving can't be here soon enough.

For the 5% who actually enjoy driving, manual it is.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 12:46
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Hill assist deactivates as you get off the brake and onto the accelerator. In this instance there should be no issue if you operate a manual as normal (i.e. you're free to only have to use two feet to operate the clutch and gas as you ease into moving forward). You're basically doing the same thing manually with a parking brake, easing off the rear brakes as you pick up forward movement, so I guess I don't really understand the issue. Its deactivation time should be more than enough for you to roll onto the throttle and it prevents you from rolling backwards, and it doesn't activate under mild slopes for which you really shouldn't require any assist.



In places like Germany, there are more specific licensing requirements- if you do your tests with a manual transmission, you get to drive both types; automatic transmission= automatic only. I don't know if this applies to other regions in the EU but you need some basic level of competence operating one and I imagine many people try to go for the manual certification so they have a greater amount of choice when picking cars so they're not stuck driving Toyota CVTs LOL

Also, "Europe" is a broad region, so it's not entirely true that manual transmissions are popular across the board. In the more North regions, automatics and CUVs for that matter are actually quite popular. The typical small, manual transmission crappy European diesel hatchback is much more popular in the Southern regions and along the Mediterranean and in the Eastern bloc.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 13:09
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If anyone is keeping score, it was Studebaker who first offered a "Hill Holder" option on a car in the US.

Studebaker was a rather brainiac group of folks from the start from building the hearse for Abraham Lincoln all the wall through to the rumored sale of its new 1967 truck designs to GM for it's revamped C and K series in exchange for a supply of I6 and V8 engines.

dashline79
Profile for dashline79
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 18:01
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If I am too fast of letting off the clutch after releasing the brake pedal the car will have a lot of drag. Logically assuming the ABS module is still applying pressure to the brakes. The point is I have to delay the time when I start to release the clutch with my left foot after I have already released the brake with my right foot. Otherwise, I get a whole lot of resistance and a whole lot of clutch slippage just trying to get going. I do not know how to explain this any further if you do not experience it first hand haha
THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 18:10
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dashline79 wrote:
If I am too fast of letting off the clutch after releasing the brake pedal the car will have a lot of drag. Logically assuming the ABS module is still applying pressure to the brakes. The point is I have to delay the time when I start to release the clutch with my left foot after I have already released the brake with my right foot. Otherwise, I get a whole lot of resistance and a whole lot of clutch slippage just trying to get going. I do not know how to explain this any further if you do not experience it first hand haha


That didn't happen with my Mazda. If you just drove off like normal, it would drive off like normal.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-12-2018 21:27
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Grace141 wrote:
If anyone is keeping score, it was Studebaker who first offered a "Hill Holder" option on a car in the US.

Studebaker was a rather brainiac group of folks from the start from building the hearse for Abraham Lincoln all the wall through to the rumored sale of its new 1967 truck designs to GM for it's revamped C and K series in exchange for a supply of I6 and V8 engines.



They also had this really weird engine where the exhaust manifold came front from the driver's side and to other side of the engine and back...

Also, their trucks had awesome bumpers.

My friend had bought an old truck to fix. So, one late dark evening a bunch of us drunk a bunch of whiskey and decided to go on a joy ride on the big field on my friend's house ( his mom owned several acres ).

There was ONE stump in the middle of the field.

Just one.

You figure out the rest...




owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 00:15
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TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Truth is, the smooth shifting stick shift is one of the key ingredients of the Si, especially since there is not a lot of torque in my '06.

Unimaginable with a slushbox.




...

But, those paddle shifters are FAST. Seriously... and going into a turn you can use it as a great pre selector. Keeping your hands on the wheel at all times. Our TLX V6 SH-AWD was great driven that way.

...




For as worldly and knowledgeable as you are about some things your perspective on cars is so incredibly limited. That transmission, those paddles, in that car are a piece of shit, an absolute joke. Go drive a 340 with the ZF 8AT (or any car with the ZF 8AT). It will make you realize you are heaping praise on the car equivalent of a Sony home theater in a box from Best Buy. The new 10AT is much better.



You might want to notice that I wrote about paddle shifters in general, and my experience in the TLX in which the paddle shifters help tremendously.

You comment is completely out of scope. Go read the thread again and realize that you are engaging in an ad hominem attack and introducing a strawman argument.

To wit: are paddle shifters faster than a manual transmission?

The rest, sorry, is BS.



Not to be taking sides TonyEX, but I think gofast182's comments may have some merit, and I don't see it as an attack.

Have you driven any brands other than Honda/Acura in the last few years?

I'm pretty sure that gofast182 has a BMW 340 now and he previously had an Acura TLX with some issues that could not be resolved.



Since you seem to be intent on making this about MY EXPERIENCE with cars, not about whether Paddle Shifters are faster than a full MT....

In the two years I've rented an Infiniti 2.0T CUV Q30?, a Ford Fusion and three Subarus: Forester and Outback, all AWD. In our next trip, next week, I specifically asked my wife for another Subaru AWD.

I've have found that I do have a predilection for Subarus. Not fast, but they seem to fit us very well and keep me out of trouble ( I just don't go around hauling a$$ in the Puget Sound with a Subbie).

The Ford Fusion had an awesome heater in the middle of a Minnesota winter.

The little Infiniti AWD CUV was tiny and an absolute gas hog.

I've also driven my co-workers Tesla S and X. Awesome cars actually.

I have become a believer on EVs. Not necessarily BEVs, but putting that motor on those wheels, with shitloads of instant on torque, is simply addictive. Those Teslas are simply some of the most powerful cars around -up until 110 mph or so. Honestly, don't pick a stop light race with a Tesla S or X, they have more instant torque that you can comprehend. It's like EV squared.

I like Teslas.... I do... I just don't care for the concept of the BEV. And, I do hate their ergonomics.

And the Clarity BEV and PHEV did it right (yep, driven those too) with their paddle shifters being used to select the "sport" charge mode. In the Clarity FCEV I have to keep my hand down in front of the shifter to select/deselect the Sport mode to do just that (it's used primarily to engage engine "braking" via regen braking -plus even more engine power in the FCEV).

OK, since you two seem to want to make this about me.... OK... how about I ask you two a simple question:

Have you driven an EV lately?

Trust me, after driving a Tesla, that BMW 540 (or whatever) is just sooo, boring and slow. In fact, the Tesla S I drove is owned by one of my coworkers who sold his Bimmer M3... that was one awesome car, yet, YET, his S simply had it all over it. He doesn't track his cars... besides, does anyone track the current Bimmer?




Talk about strawmen...

1) This isn't about BEV's or Teslas. Or Subarus for that matter.

2) You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you speak of the TLX as some monster performance machine, which it is not, and then when directly challenged by a former TLX owner with regard to an actual TLX competitor, you spin off into a tizzy about a sample set of cars that are completely unrelated. News flash: The 340i is faster than the TLX in every straight line acceleration measurement imaginable.

It is also well accepted by pretty much the entire world that the ZF 9AT in the TLX is a pile of trash. And that includes the Chrysler junk it was in as well.

3) DCT's with paddle shifters are generally faster. AT's with paddle shifters? Well that is a whole different can of worms. First, the DCT has a continuous and uninterrupted flow of power, which the AT does not.

Second, the AT has higher parasitic power losses than an MT, which means less power to the wheels.

Finally, most AT's with paddle shifters are well programmed to protect the transmission and Hondas are no exception.

Case in point? The Accord EX-L V6 AT coupe with paddle shifters is not notably faster than either the same car with 6MT or its 6AT counterpart with no paddle shifters.

xman
Profile for xman
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 09:32
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Audi made a mistake to leave the A4/A5 as their last M/T car instead of the S4/S5. Fact is, people don't but M/T anymore because it's the more economic alternative. Its a niche driving experience. M2 and Cayman's still sell a boat load of manuals thanks to us Yanks. Audi should have kept the S4 with the manual, which had a decent take rate at least in the US. The problem was Europe. There manual was still viewed as the more economic choice and Europeans couldn't see the S4 fitting that mold. American conception (what few of us that are left who enjoy manuals) see things differently. But we were not enough to convince the Germans. Within the next 5 years it will be time to find that special M/T car you always dreamed of and put it in your garage as a forever keep car you can pass down to generations who won't otherwise have the opportunity to experience.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 10:33
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dashline79 wrote:
If I am too fast of letting off the clutch after releasing the brake pedal the car will have a lot of drag. Logically assuming the ABS module is still applying pressure to the brakes. The point is I have to delay the time when I start to release the clutch with my left foot after I have already released the brake with my right foot. Otherwise, I get a whole lot of resistance and a whole lot of clutch slippage just trying to get going. I do not know how to explain this any further if you do not experience it first hand haha


And what are you doing with the accelerator after releasing the brake? The brakes should release as soon as you get back on the gas. So under normal operating conditions where you let off the brake, and let off the clutch while easing into the accelerator it should be the same as leaving from a flat stop. The only resistance I can think of is the hill itself...

dashline79
Profile for dashline79
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 14:01
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I am on the gas and it doesnít release. Letís say when I am on a hill and release the brake then immediately jump my left foot to the clutch and find itís slip point while partially on the gas, there will be some resistance for about a half to 1 second long duration. This drag is apparent and the clutch slippage is real. It is not the hills resistance because after that second or so while maintaining the same clutch slippage and throttle input, that drag immediately goes away and the car starts to pull away fine

I work at a Toyota/Chevy dealership and we have had some warranty claims with GM because people were burning out their clutches, and a contributing factor is this hill start assist. One of the field engineers words were somewhere along the lines of ďif an experienced manual driver drives this car(with the feature), they are going to be burning out the clutch.Ē Unintentionally of course

THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 15:02
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dashline79 wrote:
I am on the gas and it doesnít release. Letís say when I am on a hill and release the brake then immediately jump my left foot to the clutch and find itís slip point while partially on the gas, there will be some resistance for about a half to 1 second long duration. This drag is apparent and the clutch slippage is real. It is not the hills resistance because after that second or so while maintaining the same clutch slippage and throttle input, that drag immediately goes away and the car starts to pull away fine

I work at a Toyota/Chevy dealership and we have had some warranty claims with GM because people were burning out their clutches, and a contributing factor is this hill start assist. One of the field engineers words were somewhere along the lines of ďif an experienced manual driver drives this car(with the feature), they are going to be burning out the clutch.Ē Unintentionally of course



That's a poor design and/or implementation.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 15:34
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I would agree- if this isn't some sort of sensor failure then that's a pretty poor implementation. I don't recall this issue with Honda or Mazda.
Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 15:50
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dashline79 wrote:
I am on the gas and it doesnít release. Letís say when I am on a hill and release the brake then immediately jump my left foot to the clutch and find itís slip point while partially on the gas, there will be some resistance for about a half to 1 second long duration. This drag is apparent and the clutch slippage is real. It is not the hills resistance because after that second or so while maintaining the same clutch slippage and throttle input, that drag immediately goes away and the car starts to pull away fine

I work at a Toyota/Chevy dealership and we have had some warranty claims with GM because people were burning out their clutches, and a contributing factor is this hill start assist. One of the field engineers words were somewhere along the lines of ďif an experienced manual driver drives this car(with the feature), they are going to be burning out the clutch.Ē Unintentionally of course


I just tried to do it your way, and yes, it slips a lot (the clutch) for half to one second. I did not notice, but my way of driving manuals on hill starts is old school "winnie back" to avoid to burn the clutch (started learning on manual Opels and Ford' (Euro versions /Ascona, Kadett and Escorts then Omegas).

The trick is to, as you earlier said/in your previous post, not release the clutch for a bit more than half a second, the time that the hill assist disengage...

So, I do not slip the clutch (at least more than usual to start driving) but yes you are right I ve adapted the release of the clutch to the system.

So yes, you need some self teaching as a dealer will not mention this.

Nice to be wrong some times, I would not notice without your post.

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 20:19
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KaizenDo wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
So what is different about Europe or European (Australian?) drivers? I am assuming all the issues with MTs apply to those countries as well, but presumably Audi will continue to sell those there? What gives? Any of our European friends (or Australian) care to comment?


The answer in short: Many European drivers are cheapskate and suffer under a schizophrenic symptom. On the one hand, they spend lots of money for their car to have "moa powa", on the other hand they hardly spend any money for a decent automatic transmission.

Now people might say "Yeah, in Europe people can drive MTs like a pro". But nope, in daily traffic you'll regularily spot drivers missing out to start of from traffic lights - thus causing long queues and traffic jams. And talkng about traffic jams, nothing seems to tick off german drivers more than tight traffic, according to their facial expressions.

So it's not like that many people in Europe doesn't want automatics, but rather they just don't want to spent extra money for it. (So it's good that vehdub has introduced goodies like traffic sign recognition, what would you do without it? LOL)




Sasker wrote:
In North America where 95% of cars are automatic we have huge traffic jams, with people missing green lights (or other cars) because they are using their free right hand to text or browse Facefook or eat.

95% of people hate driving, and automatics allow them to focus on anything other than driving. For this majority of people, fully autonomous driving can't be here soon enough.

For the 5% who actually enjoy driving, manual it is.




In my part of the world, people park their manual car and start in first, go into drains. I know one that manage to run over herself in a manual (how? I dunno?) Also in my part of the world, people park their automatic car and start their car in Park, shift to reverse, want to press brake but hit accelerate, and go into drains. Many of them who drive manual don't enjoy driving, it is just something they need to do or part of the job. And also they find a way to use the phone while driving in a manual car anyway..

100% the problem with people. Never the manual / automatic problem.

Also, manual car get stolen just as much as automatics.

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 20:33
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THX17201 wrote:
dashline79 wrote:
I am on the gas and it doesnít release. Letís say when I am on a hill and release the brake then immediately jump my left foot to the clutch and find itís slip point while partially on the gas, there will be some resistance for about a half to 1 second long duration. This drag is apparent and the clutch slippage is real. It is not the hills resistance because after that second or so while maintaining the same clutch slippage and throttle input, that drag immediately goes away and the car starts to pull away fine

I work at a Toyota/Chevy dealership and we have had some warranty claims with GM because people were burning out their clutches, and a contributing factor is this hill start assist. One of the field engineers words were somewhere along the lines of ďif an experienced manual driver drives this car(with the feature), they are going to be burning out the clutch.Ē Unintentionally of course



That's a poor design and/or implementation.






Best hill assist solution: Use the "Clarkson handbrake"

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 21:13
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Truth is, the smooth shifting stick shift is one of the key ingredients of the Si, especially since there is not a lot of torque in my '06.

Unimaginable with a slushbox.




...

But, those paddle shifters are FAST. Seriously... and going into a turn you can use it as a great pre selector. Keeping your hands on the wheel at all times. Our TLX V6 SH-AWD was great driven that way.

...




For as worldly and knowledgeable as you are about some things your perspective on cars is so incredibly limited. That transmission, those paddles, in that car are a piece of shit, an absolute joke. Go drive a 340 with the ZF 8AT (or any car with the ZF 8AT). It will make you realize you are heaping praise on the car equivalent of a Sony home theater in a box from Best Buy. The new 10AT is much better.



You might want to notice that I wrote about paddle shifters in general, and my experience in the TLX in which the paddle shifters help tremendously.

You comment is completely out of scope. Go read the thread again and realize that you are engaging in an ad hominem attack and introducing a strawman argument.

To wit: are paddle shifters faster than a manual transmission?

The rest, sorry, is BS.



Not to be taking sides TonyEX, but I think gofast182's comments may have some merit, and I don't see it as an attack.

Have you driven any brands other than Honda/Acura in the last few years?

I'm pretty sure that gofast182 has a BMW 340 now and he previously had an Acura TLX with some issues that could not be resolved.



Since you seem to be intent on making this about MY EXPERIENCE with cars, not about whether Paddle Shifters are faster than a full MT....

In the two years I've rented an Infiniti 2.0T CUV Q30?, a Ford Fusion and three Subarus: Forester and Outback, all AWD. In our next trip, next week, I specifically asked my wife for another Subaru AWD.

I've have found that I do have a predilection for Subarus. Not fast, but they seem to fit us very well and keep me out of trouble ( I just don't go around hauling a$$ in the Puget Sound with a Subbie).

The Ford Fusion had an awesome heater in the middle of a Minnesota winter.

The little Infiniti AWD CUV was tiny and an absolute gas hog.

I've also driven my co-workers Tesla S and X. Awesome cars actually.

I have become a believer on EVs. Not necessarily BEVs, but putting that motor on those wheels, with shitloads of instant on torque, is simply addictive. Those Teslas are simply some of the most powerful cars around -up until 110 mph or so. Honestly, don't pick a stop light race with a Tesla S or X, they have more instant torque that you can comprehend. It's like EV squared.

I like Teslas.... I do... I just don't care for the concept of the BEV. And, I do hate their ergonomics.

And the Clarity BEV and PHEV did it right (yep, driven those too) with their paddle shifters being used to select the "sport" charge mode. In the Clarity FCEV I have to keep my hand down in front of the shifter to select/deselect the Sport mode to do just that (it's used primarily to engage engine "braking" via regen braking -plus even more engine power in the FCEV).

OK, since you two seem to want to make this about me.... OK... how about I ask you two a simple question:

Have you driven an EV lately?

Trust me, after driving a Tesla, that BMW 540 (or whatever) is just sooo, boring and slow. In fact, the Tesla S I drove is owned by one of my coworkers who sold his Bimmer M3... that was one awesome car, yet, YET, his S simply had it all over it. He doesn't track his cars... besides, does anyone track the current Bimmer?




Talk about strawmen...

1) This isn't about BEV's or Teslas. Or Subarus for that matter.

2) You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you speak of the TLX as some monster performance machine, which it is not, and then when directly challenged by a former TLX owner with regard to an actual TLX competitor, you spin off into a tizzy about a sample set of cars that are completely unrelated. News flash: The 340i is faster than the TLX in every straight line acceleration measurement imaginable.

It is also well accepted by pretty much the entire world that the ZF 9AT in the TLX is a pile of trash. And that includes the Chrysler junk it was in as well.

3) DCT's with paddle shifters are generally faster. AT's with paddle shifters? Well that is a whole different can of worms. First, the DCT has a continuous and uninterrupted flow of power, which the AT does not.

Second, the AT has higher parasitic power losses than an MT, which means less power to the wheels.

Finally, most AT's with paddle shifters are well programmed to protect the transmission and Hondas are no exception.

Case in point? The Accord EX-L V6 AT coupe with paddle shifters is not notably faster than either the same car with 6MT or its 6AT counterpart with no paddle shifters.



(1) He asked me what kind of cars I've driven, which I noted was out of scope, but I still humored him. That the BMW is faster than the TLX does not address anything I've written about those two cars. And I don't write that the TLX SH-AWD is a monster, just that it can be driven quite fast.

(2) In a straight line the DCT will be faster than the AT. But I gotta tell you that an AT can also be really fast. Either is faster than the MT.
In a turn, it's no contest, something with paddle shifters is faster than an MT. I suppose you might have a clunker of a slow transmission (ie: 01 Acura CL) made for leisure and an engine that is detuned for it... but those have nothing to do with my premise.

Paddle shifting is faster than a manual. Why? Heck, you don't have to take your hands of the wheel.

Which is my point.

Don't believe me? Just look at how race car drivers shift nowadays (ignore NASCAR and the "stock" production classes).

In fact, it was Ferrari back around 2000 that indicated that its drivers were faster going around Marenello in a paddle shifter DCT than in a full manual.

(3) I do give it to you than some AT paddle implementations can be a PITA, like my 01 CL. However, even the TLX has a sport mode in the transmission that will let you override the computer if you are under the redline. I haven't driven the V6 Accord AT. But I can tell you that if you put that TLX SH-AWD on Sport II mode (manual?) and punch it off the line it will hit 60 mph with lighting fast shifts at redline. (*)

(*) That 9AT doesn't have a problem upshifting, it's always been about the 5th to 4th downshift where it has to wait for the dog gear to catch up.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2018 22:10
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TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Truth is, the smooth shifting stick shift is one of the key ingredients of the Si, especially since there is not a lot of torque in my '06.

Unimaginable with a slushbox.




...

But, those paddle shifters are FAST. Seriously... and going into a turn you can use it as a great pre selector. Keeping your hands on the wheel at all times. Our TLX V6 SH-AWD was great driven that way.

...




For as worldly and knowledgeable as you are about some things your perspective on cars is so incredibly limited. That transmission, those paddles, in that car are a piece of shit, an absolute joke. Go drive a 340 with the ZF 8AT (or any car with the ZF 8AT). It will make you realize you are heaping praise on the car equivalent of a Sony home theater in a box from Best Buy. The new 10AT is much better.



You might want to notice that I wrote about paddle shifters in general, and my experience in the TLX in which the paddle shifters help tremendously.

You comment is completely out of scope. Go read the thread again and realize that you are engaging in an ad hominem attack and introducing a strawman argument.

To wit: are paddle shifters faster than a manual transmission?

The rest, sorry, is BS.



Not to be taking sides TonyEX, but I think gofast182's comments may have some merit, and I don't see it as an attack.

Have you driven any brands other than Honda/Acura in the last few years?

I'm pretty sure that gofast182 has a BMW 340 now and he previously had an Acura TLX with some issues that could not be resolved.



Since you seem to be intent on making this about MY EXPERIENCE with cars, not about whether Paddle Shifters are faster than a full MT....

In the two years I've rented an Infiniti 2.0T CUV Q30?, a Ford Fusion and three Subarus: Forester and Outback, all AWD. In our next trip, next week, I specifically asked my wife for another Subaru AWD.

I've have found that I do have a predilection for Subarus. Not fast, but they seem to fit us very well and keep me out of trouble ( I just don't go around hauling a$$ in the Puget Sound with a Subbie).

The Ford Fusion had an awesome heater in the middle of a Minnesota winter.

The little Infiniti AWD CUV was tiny and an absolute gas hog.

I've also driven my co-workers Tesla S and X. Awesome cars actually.

I have become a believer on EVs. Not necessarily BEVs, but putting that motor on those wheels, with shitloads of instant on torque, is simply addictive. Those Teslas are simply some of the most powerful cars around -up until 110 mph or so. Honestly, don't pick a stop light race with a Tesla S or X, they have more instant torque that you can comprehend. It's like EV squared.

I like Teslas.... I do... I just don't care for the concept of the BEV. And, I do hate their ergonomics.

And the Clarity BEV and PHEV did it right (yep, driven those too) with their paddle shifters being used to select the "sport" charge mode. In the Clarity FCEV I have to keep my hand down in front of the shifter to select/deselect the Sport mode to do just that (it's used primarily to engage engine "braking" via regen braking -plus even more engine power in the FCEV).

OK, since you two seem to want to make this about me.... OK... how about I ask you two a simple question:

Have you driven an EV lately?

Trust me, after driving a Tesla, that BMW 540 (or whatever) is just sooo, boring and slow. In fact, the Tesla S I drove is owned by one of my coworkers who sold his Bimmer M3... that was one awesome car, yet, YET, his S simply had it all over it. He doesn't track his cars... besides, does anyone track the current Bimmer?




Talk about strawmen...

1) This isn't about BEV's or Teslas. Or Subarus for that matter.

2) You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you speak of the TLX as some monster performance machine, which it is not, and then when directly challenged by a former TLX owner with regard to an actual TLX competitor, you spin off into a tizzy about a sample set of cars that are completely unrelated. News flash: The 340i is faster than the TLX in every straight line acceleration measurement imaginable.

It is also well accepted by pretty much the entire world that the ZF 9AT in the TLX is a pile of trash. And that includes the Chrysler junk it was in as well.

3) DCT's with paddle shifters are generally faster. AT's with paddle shifters? Well that is a whole different can of worms. First, the DCT has a continuous and uninterrupted flow of power, which the AT does not.

Second, the AT has higher parasitic power losses than an MT, which means less power to the wheels.

Finally, most AT's with paddle shifters are well programmed to protect the transmission and Hondas are no exception.

Case in point? The Accord EX-L V6 AT coupe with paddle shifters is not notably faster than either the same car with 6MT or its 6AT counterpart with no paddle shifters.



(1) He asked me what kind of cars I've driven, which I noted was out of scope, but I still humored him. That the BMW is faster than the TLX does not address anything I've written about those two cars. And I don't write that the TLX SH-AWD is a monster, just that it can be driven quite fast.

(2) In a straight line the DCT will be faster than the AT. But I gotta tell you that an AT can also be really fast. Either is faster than the MT.
In a turn, it's no contest, something with paddle shifters is faster than an MT. I suppose you might have a clunker of a slow transmission (ie: 01 Acura CL) made for leisure and an engine that is detuned for it... but those have nothing to do with my premise.

Paddle shifting is faster than a manual. Why? Heck, you don't have to take your hands of the wheel.

Which is my point.

Don't believe me? Just look at how race car drivers shift nowadays (ignore NASCAR and the "stock" production classes).

In fact, it was Ferrari back around 2000 that indicated that its drivers were faster going around Marenello in a paddle shifter DCT than in a full manual.

(3) I do give it to you than some AT paddle implementations can be a PITA, like my 01 CL. However, even the TLX has a sport mode in the transmission that will let you override the computer if you are under the redline. I haven't driven the V6 Accord AT. But I can tell you that if you put that TLX SH-AWD on Sport II mode (manual?) and punch it off the line it will hit 60 mph with lighting fast shifts at redline. (*)

(*) That 9AT doesn't have a problem upshifting, it's always been about the 5th to 4th downshift where it has to wait for the dog gear to catch up.



I dunno Tony, what does it matter if a DCT or AT is faster than a manual? If a V6 Camry is faster than a Miata does that make it a better or more enjoyable car? Faster shifts doesn't mean a better transmission to me at least. Being much more boring, less involving and just taking that control out of my hands hugely out weighs any benefits for me. That is my opinion though. It's hard for me to get excited about fast shifting when I had nothing to do with it. It feels like I'd be saying look at this sweet route my Tesla auto pilot just took! Just not something I consider satisfying when I think about what I enjoy about driving. Please continue to enjoy all the stellar autos out there. Hopefully you'll keep a manual car around to enjoy too. I'm gonna keep my household all manual as long as I can.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 01:13
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Mikgtir wrote:
dashline79 wrote:
I am on the gas and it doesnít release. Letís say when I am on a hill and release the brake then immediately jump my left foot to the clutch and find itís slip point while partially on the gas, there will be some resistance for about a half to 1 second long duration. This drag is apparent and the clutch slippage is real. It is not the hills resistance because after that second or so while maintaining the same clutch slippage and throttle input, that drag immediately goes away and the car starts to pull away fine

I work at a Toyota/Chevy dealership and we have had some warranty claims with GM because people were burning out their clutches, and a contributing factor is this hill start assist. One of the field engineers words were somewhere along the lines of ďif an experienced manual driver drives this car(with the feature), they are going to be burning out the clutch.Ē Unintentionally of course


I just tried to do it your way, and yes, it slips a lot (the clutch) for half to one second. I did not notice, but my way of driving manuals on hill starts is old school "winnie back" to avoid to burn the clutch (started learning on manual Opels and Ford' (Euro versions /Ascona, Kadett and Escorts then Omegas).

The trick is to, as you earlier said/in your previous post, not release the clutch for a bit more than half a second, the time that the hill assist disengage...

So, I do not slip the clutch (at least more than usual to start driving) but yes you are right I ve adapted the release of the clutch to the system.

So yes, you need some self teaching as a dealer will not mention this.

Nice to be wrong some times, I would not notice without your post.



Something is wrong because mine doesn't do that either. It holds for a few seconds after you let off the brake, or until you get back on the gas and the clutch starts to engage and then it releases. There is a split second of resistance as you start to let the clutch out, but it is not significant.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 01:21
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Truth is, the smooth shifting stick shift is one of the key ingredients of the Si, especially since there is not a lot of torque in my '06.

Unimaginable with a slushbox.




...

But, those paddle shifters are FAST. Seriously... and going into a turn you can use it as a great pre selector. Keeping your hands on the wheel at all times. Our TLX V6 SH-AWD was great driven that way.

...




For as worldly and knowledgeable as you are about some things your perspective on cars is so incredibly limited. That transmission, those paddles, in that car are a piece of shit, an absolute joke. Go drive a 340 with the ZF 8AT (or any car with the ZF 8AT). It will make you realize you are heaping praise on the car equivalent of a Sony home theater in a box from Best Buy. The new 10AT is much better.



You might want to notice that I wrote about paddle shifters in general, and my experience in the TLX in which the paddle shifters help tremendously.

You comment is completely out of scope. Go read the thread again and realize that you are engaging in an ad hominem attack and introducing a strawman argument.

To wit: are paddle shifters faster than a manual transmission?

The rest, sorry, is BS.



Not to be taking sides TonyEX, but I think gofast182's comments may have some merit, and I don't see it as an attack.

Have you driven any brands other than Honda/Acura in the last few years?

I'm pretty sure that gofast182 has a BMW 340 now and he previously had an Acura TLX with some issues that could not be resolved.



Since you seem to be intent on making this about MY EXPERIENCE with cars, not about whether Paddle Shifters are faster than a full MT....

In the two years I've rented an Infiniti 2.0T CUV Q30?, a Ford Fusion and three Subarus: Forester and Outback, all AWD. In our next trip, next week, I specifically asked my wife for another Subaru AWD.

I've have found that I do have a predilection for Subarus. Not fast, but they seem to fit us very well and keep me out of trouble ( I just don't go around hauling a$$ in the Puget Sound with a Subbie).

The Ford Fusion had an awesome heater in the middle of a Minnesota winter.

The little Infiniti AWD CUV was tiny and an absolute gas hog.

I've also driven my co-workers Tesla S and X. Awesome cars actually.

I have become a believer on EVs. Not necessarily BEVs, but putting that motor on those wheels, with shitloads of instant on torque, is simply addictive. Those Teslas are simply some of the most powerful cars around -up until 110 mph or so. Honestly, don't pick a stop light race with a Tesla S or X, they have more instant torque that you can comprehend. It's like EV squared.

I like Teslas.... I do... I just don't care for the concept of the BEV. And, I do hate their ergonomics.

And the Clarity BEV and PHEV did it right (yep, driven those too) with their paddle shifters being used to select the "sport" charge mode. In the Clarity FCEV I have to keep my hand down in front of the shifter to select/deselect the Sport mode to do just that (it's used primarily to engage engine "braking" via regen braking -plus even more engine power in the FCEV).

OK, since you two seem to want to make this about me.... OK... how about I ask you two a simple question:

Have you driven an EV lately?

Trust me, after driving a Tesla, that BMW 540 (or whatever) is just sooo, boring and slow. In fact, the Tesla S I drove is owned by one of my coworkers who sold his Bimmer M3... that was one awesome car, yet, YET, his S simply had it all over it. He doesn't track his cars... besides, does anyone track the current Bimmer?




Talk about strawmen...

1) This isn't about BEV's or Teslas. Or Subarus for that matter.

2) You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you speak of the TLX as some monster performance machine, which it is not, and then when directly challenged by a former TLX owner with regard to an actual TLX competitor, you spin off into a tizzy about a sample set of cars that are completely unrelated. News flash: The 340i is faster than the TLX in every straight line acceleration measurement imaginable.

It is also well accepted by pretty much the entire world that the ZF 9AT in the TLX is a pile of trash. And that includes the Chrysler junk it was in as well.

3) DCT's with paddle shifters are generally faster. AT's with paddle shifters? Well that is a whole different can of worms. First, the DCT has a continuous and uninterrupted flow of power, which the AT does not.

Second, the AT has higher parasitic power losses than an MT, which means less power to the wheels.

Finally, most AT's with paddle shifters are well programmed to protect the transmission and Hondas are no exception.

Case in point? The Accord EX-L V6 AT coupe with paddle shifters is not notably faster than either the same car with 6MT or its 6AT counterpart with no paddle shifters.



(1) He asked me what kind of cars I've driven, which I noted was out of scope, but I still humored him. That the BMW is faster than the TLX does not address anything I've written about those two cars. And I don't write that the TLX SH-AWD is a monster, just that it can be driven quite fast.

(2) In a straight line the DCT will be faster than the AT. But I gotta tell you that an AT can also be really fast. Either is faster than the MT.
In a turn, it's no contest, something with paddle shifters is faster than an MT. I suppose you might have a clunker of a slow transmission (ie: 01 Acura CL) made for leisure and an engine that is detuned for it... but those have nothing to do with my premise.

Paddle shifting is faster than a manual. Why? Heck, you don't have to take your hands of the wheel.

Which is my point.

Don't believe me? Just look at how race car drivers shift nowadays (ignore NASCAR and the "stock" production classes).

In fact, it was Ferrari back around 2000 that indicated that its drivers were faster going around Marenello in a paddle shifter DCT than in a full manual.

(3) I do give it to you than some AT paddle implementations can be a PITA, like my 01 CL. However, even the TLX has a sport mode in the transmission that will let you override the computer if you are under the redline. I haven't driven the V6 Accord AT. But I can tell you that if you put that TLX SH-AWD on Sport II mode (manual?) and punch it off the line it will hit 60 mph with lighting fast shifts at redline. (*)

(*) That 9AT doesn't have a problem upshifting, it's always been about the 5th to 4th downshift where it has to wait for the dog gear to catch up.



I know what he asked you. But you still completely avoided the actual question by listing off a bunch of BEV's which are either far slower (including the Clarity) or exist at a completely different price point.

You then contradicted yourself by trying to downplay the speed of the BMW while simultaneously trying to up play the performance of the TLX in EVERY_SINGLE_THREAD you mention it. If the BMW is faster than the TLX and the TLX is fast (as you have REPEATEDLY said) and you then try to downplay the speed of the BMW, then you are, in fact, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

As for the TLX, I think it has become pretty clear at this point that nobody really gives a shit. It is a mediocre seller at best.

As for AT vs MT, we will agree to disagree because I have driven a quite a few Honda AT's lately that really put the brakes on your ability to hammer them in the interest of protecting the powertrain. Specifically, I am referring to minimum in gear speeds off throttle, upshift limitations and downshift limitations. Honda doesn't want warranty claims, so they limit the driver's ability. In some cases, there are delays between flipping a paddle and actually getting a shift as well.

Besides, it has already been mentioned ones, but the paddle shifted TLX and Accord V6 were not faster than the 6MT coupe despite being either similar in weight, or having more gears/more traction. Those facts are pesky things after all.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 01:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Truth is, the smooth shifting stick shift is one of the key ingredients of the Si, especially since there is not a lot of torque in my '06.

Unimaginable with a slushbox.




...

But, those paddle shifters are FAST. Seriously... and going into a turn you can use it as a great pre selector. Keeping your hands on the wheel at all times. Our TLX V6 SH-AWD was great driven that way.

...




For as worldly and knowledgeable as you are about some things your perspective on cars is so incredibly limited. That transmission, those paddles, in that car are a piece of shit, an absolute joke. Go drive a 340 with the ZF 8AT (or any car with the ZF 8AT). It will make you realize you are heaping praise on the car equivalent of a Sony home theater in a box from Best Buy. The new 10AT is much better.



You might want to notice that I wrote about paddle shifters in general, and my experience in the TLX in which the paddle shifters help tremendously.

You comment is completely out of scope. Go read the thread again and realize that you are engaging in an ad hominem attack and introducing a strawman argument.

To wit: are paddle shifters faster than a manual transmission?

The rest, sorry, is BS.



Not to be taking sides TonyEX, but I think gofast182's comments may have some merit, and I don't see it as an attack.

Have you driven any brands other than Honda/Acura in the last few years?

I'm pretty sure that gofast182 has a BMW 340 now and he previously had an Acura TLX with some issues that could not be resolved.



Since you seem to be intent on making this about MY EXPERIENCE with cars, not about whether Paddle Shifters are faster than a full MT....

In the two years I've rented an Infiniti 2.0T CUV Q30?, a Ford Fusion and three Subarus: Forester and Outback, all AWD. In our next trip, next week, I specifically asked my wife for another Subaru AWD.

I've have found that I do have a predilection for Subarus. Not fast, but they seem to fit us very well and keep me out of trouble ( I just don't go around hauling a$$ in the Puget Sound with a Subbie).

The Ford Fusion had an awesome heater in the middle of a Minnesota winter.

The little Infiniti AWD CUV was tiny and an absolute gas hog.

I've also driven my co-workers Tesla S and X. Awesome cars actually.

I have become a believer on EVs. Not necessarily BEVs, but putting that motor on those wheels, with shitloads of instant on torque, is simply addictive. Those Teslas are simply some of the most powerful cars around -up until 110 mph or so. Honestly, don't pick a stop light race with a Tesla S or X, they have more instant torque that you can comprehend. It's like EV squared.

I like Teslas.... I do... I just don't care for the concept of the BEV. And, I do hate their ergonomics.

And the Clarity BEV and PHEV did it right (yep, driven those too) with their paddle shifters being used to select the "sport" charge mode. In the Clarity FCEV I have to keep my hand down in front of the shifter to select/deselect the Sport mode to do just that (it's used primarily to engage engine "braking" via regen braking -plus even more engine power in the FCEV).

OK, since you two seem to want to make this about me.... OK... how about I ask you two a simple question:

Have you driven an EV lately?

Trust me, after driving a Tesla, that BMW 540 (or whatever) is just sooo, boring and slow. In fact, the Tesla S I drove is owned by one of my coworkers who sold his Bimmer M3... that was one awesome car, yet, YET, his S simply had it all over it. He doesn't track his cars... besides, does anyone track the current Bimmer?




Talk about strawmen...

1) This isn't about BEV's or Teslas. Or Subarus for that matter.

2) You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you speak of the TLX as some monster performance machine, which it is not, and then when directly challenged by a former TLX owner with regard to an actual TLX competitor, you spin off into a tizzy about a sample set of cars that are completely unrelated. News flash: The 340i is faster than the TLX in every straight line acceleration measurement imaginable.

It is also well accepted by pretty much the entire world that the ZF 9AT in the TLX is a pile of trash. And that includes the Chrysler junk it was in as well.

3) DCT's with paddle shifters are generally faster. AT's with paddle shifters? Well that is a whole different can of worms. First, the DCT has a continuous and uninterrupted flow of power, which the AT does not.

Second, the AT has higher parasitic power losses than an MT, which means less power to the wheels.

Finally, most AT's with paddle shifters are well programmed to protect the transmission and Hondas are no exception.

Case in point? The Accord EX-L V6 AT coupe with paddle shifters is not notably faster than either the same car with 6MT or its 6AT counterpart with no paddle shifters.



(1) He asked me what kind of cars I've driven, which I noted was out of scope, but I still humored him. That the BMW is faster than the TLX does not address anything I've written about those two cars. And I don't write that the TLX SH-AWD is a monster, just that it can be driven quite fast.

(2) In a straight line the DCT will be faster than the AT. But I gotta tell you that an AT can also be really fast. Either is faster than the MT.
In a turn, it's no contest, something with paddle shifters is faster than an MT. I suppose you might have a clunker of a slow transmission (ie: 01 Acura CL) made for leisure and an engine that is detuned for it... but those have nothing to do with my premise.

Paddle shifting is faster than a manual. Why? Heck, you don't have to take your hands of the wheel.

Which is my point.

Don't believe me? Just look at how race car drivers shift nowadays (ignore NASCAR and the "stock" production classes).

In fact, it was Ferrari back around 2000 that indicated that its drivers were faster going around Marenello in a paddle shifter DCT than in a full manual.

(3) I do give it to you than some AT paddle implementations can be a PITA, like my 01 CL. However, even the TLX has a sport mode in the transmission that will let you override the computer if you are under the redline. I haven't driven the V6 Accord AT. But I can tell you that if you put that TLX SH-AWD on Sport II mode (manual?) and punch it off the line it will hit 60 mph with lighting fast shifts at redline. (*)

(*) That 9AT doesn't have a problem upshifting, it's always been about the 5th to 4th downshift where it has to wait for the dog gear to catch up.



I know what he asked you. But you still completely avoided the actual question by listing off a bunch of BEV's which are either far slower (including the Clarity) or exist at a completely different price point.

You then contradicted yourself by trying to downplay the speed of the BMW while simultaneously trying to up play the performance of the TLX in EVERY_SINGLE_THREAD you mention it. If the BMW is faster than the TLX and the TLX is fast (as you have REPEATEDLY said) and you then try to downplay the speed of the BMW, then you are, in fact, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

As for the TLX, I think it has become pretty clear at this point that nobody really gives a shit. It is a mediocre seller at best.

As for AT vs MT, we will agree to disagree because I have driven a quite a few Honda AT's lately that really put the brakes on your ability to hammer them in the interest of protecting the powertrain. Specifically, I am referring to minimum in gear speeds off throttle, upshift limitations and downshift limitations. Honda doesn't want warranty claims, so they limit the driver's ability. In some cases, there are delays between flipping a paddle and actually getting a shift as well.

Besides, it has already been mentioned ones, but the paddle shifted TLX and Accord V6 were not faster than the 6MT coupe despite being either similar in weight, or having more gears/more traction. Those facts are pesky things after all.


If one didn't know better, one might think that TonyEX's wife works for American Honda.

:)

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 10:17
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I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 10:38
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gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



100% disagree. I've driven many medium to high power modern turbo cars with manual and they are still great. Autos and DCT are definitely great nowadays if you can tolerate them. But manuals are still very effective conduits and completely outclass them in driving involvement. That makes them better to me. Mechanical efficiency is only one metric. Depends on what you value more when driving.

superchg2
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Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 11:25
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KaySee wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



100% disagree. I've driven many medium to high power modern turbo cars with manual and they are still great. Autos and DCT are definitely great nowadays if you can tolerate them. But manuals are still very effective conduits and completely outclass them in driving involvement. That makes them better to me. Mechanical efficiency is only one metric. Depends on what you value more when driving.


I can't imagine my Si with an autotragic. The 6 speed makes the most of what the K20 has to offer. A 7 speed for lower r.p.m.'s might be nice, but then there is the less than impressive torque to deal with.

CarPhreakD
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Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 12:42
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The problem I have with dry-clutch DCTs in particular is that they shift like noob MT drivers when going uphill stop/go traffic. They're all hilariously awful.

Now, when you get a proper wet-clutch DCT, like Porsche's PDK, THAT is a proper automatic transmission (along with the ubiquitous ZF 8hp).

That being said, I do have standards for MTs as well. A bad MT can ruin the car just as much, if not more so, than a bad automatic. I gotta tell you, as good as the S2000 and Civic Si are, there are cars with pretty bad transmissions. The Fiat 500 Abarth is a lot of fun, but the overwhelmingly worst part of that car (besides the 'sitting on a barstool' seating) is that using the shifter feels like you're moving a cucumber through a sea of bowling balls.

TonyEX
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Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 13:01
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KaySee wrote:
...

I dunno Tony, what does it matter if a DCT or AT is faster than a manual? If a V6 Camry is faster than a Miata does that make it a better or more enjoyable car? Faster shifts doesn't mean a better transmission to me at least. Being much more boring, less involving and just taking that control out of my hands hugely out weighs any benefits for me. That is my opinion though. It's hard for me to get excited about fast shifting when I had nothing to do with it. It feels like I'd be saying look at this sweet route my Tesla auto pilot just took! Just not something I consider satisfying when I think about what I enjoy about driving. Please continue to enjoy all the stellar autos out there. Hopefully you'll keep a manual car around to enjoy too. I'm gonna keep my household all manual as long as I can.



That's a different point: What transmission is more fun to drive.

Personally I too prefer the MT, primarily because I can rock the car when it's just sitting there. And I can burn rubber whenever I feel like it.

But, what I prefer is not necessarily the most efficient.

When I got into a turn, for example, I prefer to keep my hands on the wheel. If I have to reach down to shift, then it gets in the way.

KaySee
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Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 14:27
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TonyEX wrote:
KaySee wrote:
...

I dunno Tony, what does it matter if a DCT or AT is faster than a manual? If a V6 Camry is faster than a Miata does that make it a better or more enjoyable car? Faster shifts doesn't mean a better transmission to me at least. Being much more boring, less involving and just taking that control out of my hands hugely out weighs any benefits for me. That is my opinion though. It's hard for me to get excited about fast shifting when I had nothing to do with it. It feels like I'd be saying look at this sweet route my Tesla auto pilot just took! Just not something I consider satisfying when I think about what I enjoy about driving. Please continue to enjoy all the stellar autos out there. Hopefully you'll keep a manual car around to enjoy too. I'm gonna keep my household all manual as long as I can.



That's a different point: What transmission is more fun to drive.

Personally I too prefer the MT, primarily because I can rock the car when it's just sitting there. And I can burn rubber whenever I feel like it.

But, what I prefer is not necessarily the most efficient.

When I got into a turn, for example, I prefer to keep my hands on the wheel. If I have to reach down to shift, then it gets in the way.



I guess it's still a similar point actually. I do agree ATs are more efficient but I value enjoying my drive over whatever efficiencies autos have that you are referring to.

I do not shift during turns the majority of the time. But even if I do, I am completely unphased in the execution of that task(I may actually be doing it for fun in some cases). Perhaps for you that is a sticking point. For me, that is a non-issue and means nothing to me.

A Prius or a Clarity may be more "efficient" than my vechicle, but I do not value that efficiency moreso than enjoying the act of driving. Just like some people value utility/cargo space and buy big SUVs. Or some people value the cheapest possible price and buy a stripper Corolla/Kia whatever.

On my end I'll be pouring a little out for the greatness that the S5 Sportback could have been. As is, it's just a rolling yawn for me.




 
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