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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?

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sadlerau
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Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 02:05
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owequitit wrote:

If they know cars and choose to lease Germans over Acura, then they obviously know something Honda doesn't...



Generally [very generally, obviously] customers who buy zee Germans are wedded to the image of a lifestyle. Nothing more. And no, Honda most definitely doesn't know anything about that lifestyle. :)

Remember when Acura first released the RLX, they had an add showing a rather "cool" mature man driving his RLX in conjunction with his house and lifestyle? I liked it very much, but from memory most here didn't like/appreciate it, but I'm sure it was the right direction for Acura to go with their advertising. Except it wasn't just about a series of adds, it's about the image a company presents, the cachet that company carries and the lifestyle opportunities [real and imagined] that that marque presents and affords it's clientele.

A half arsed and restricted attempt was never going to cut it, no matter how good the product presented. You could have the best "base" luxury car on the planet, but if you don't have the cachet of having much more aspirational models on the borchure you ain't going to cut it. We all know only a small percentage ever buy the top of the wossa model, but that's not the point.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 03:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f86resKMwT0
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 03:56
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...with luxury headlights and luxury steering. Sold!
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 05:22
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NealX wrote:
...with luxury headlights and luxury steering. Sold!


Actually the headlights and steering were highlights. It's just they never developed the whole rest of the package/presentation. You as a designer will appreciate how important "presentation" of anything is. :)

The real issue is Honda [and hence Acura] can never understand the concept of luxury. Period.

And then we get onto design............

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 07:05
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sadlerau wrote:
owequitit wrote:

If they know cars and choose to lease Germans over Acura, then they obviously know something Honda doesn't...



Generally [very generally, obviously] customers who buy zee Germans are wedded to the image of a lifestyle. Nothing more. And no, Honda most definitely doesn't know anything about that lifestyle. :)

Remember when Acura first released the RLX, they had an add showing a rather "cool" mature man driving his RLX in conjunction with his house and lifestyle? I liked it very much, but from memory most here didn't like/appreciate it, but I'm sure it was the right direction for Acura to go with their advertising. Except it wasn't just about a series of adds, it's about the image a company presents, the cachet that company carries and the lifestyle opportunities [real and imagined] that that marque presents and affords it's clientele.

A half arsed and restricted attempt was never going to cut it, no matter how good the product presented. You could have the best "base" luxury car on the planet, but if you don't have the cachet of having much more aspirational models on the borchure you ain't going to cut it. We all know only a small percentage ever buy the top of the wossa model, but that's not the point.


From personal experience, now having two BMWs in the driveway, I can tell you that in our case it wasn't about lifestyle. For me it was a tough break from over a decade of loyalty to a brand moving to a product that is better in a few critical ways (also worse in some ways) but you are treated like you are important to them during the sales and service experiences which is the key. In my experience, in both cases, brand-related lifestyle was never contemplated (except for Performance Center Delivery for my wife's car) but BMW works very hard to provide awareness and opportunities to its customers. Acura was starting to do this with its Style magazine and the like but BMW has it covered so much more thoroughly and seamlessly. Just yesterday they presented an offer to go to an art exhibit in NY which I did not respond to but in two weeks we are going on a tour of the Vehicle Distribution Center at the Port in Elizabeth NJ.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 07:21
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gofast182 wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
owequitit wrote:

If they know cars and choose to lease Germans over Acura, then they obviously know something Honda doesn't...



Generally [very generally, obviously] customers who buy zee Germans are wedded to the image of a lifestyle. Nothing more. And no, Honda most definitely doesn't know anything about that lifestyle. :)

Remember when Acura first released the RLX, they had an add showing a rather "cool" mature man driving his RLX in conjunction with his house and lifestyle? I liked it very much, but from memory most here didn't like/appreciate it, but I'm sure it was the right direction for Acura to go with their advertising. Except it wasn't just about a series of adds, it's about the image a company presents, the cachet that company carries and the lifestyle opportunities [real and imagined] that that marque presents and affords it's clientele.

A half arsed and restricted attempt was never going to cut it, no matter how good the product presented. You could have the best "base" luxury car on the planet, but if you don't have the cachet of having much more aspirational models on the borchure you ain't going to cut it. We all know only a small percentage ever buy the top of the wossa model, but that's not the point.


From personal experience, now having two BMWs in the driveway, I can tell you that in our case it wasn't about lifestyle. For me it was a tough break from over a decade of loyalty to a brand moving to a product that is better in a few critical ways (also worse in some ways) but you are treated like you are important to them during the sales and service experiences which is the key. In my experience, in both cases, brand-related lifestyle was never contemplated (except for Performance Center Delivery for my wife's car) but BMW works very hard to provide awareness and opportunities to its customers. Acura was starting to do this with its Style magazine and the like but BMW has it covered so much more thoroughly and seamlessly. Just yesterday they presented an offer to go to an art exhibit in NY which I did not respond to but in two weeks we are going on a tour of the Vehicle Distribution Center at the Port in Elizabeth NJ.


Also last summer I went to the (huge) M-Pact festival at Pocono Raceway. I wasn't there as a BMW fan per se' (I wasn't even planning to go), rather as an on track driving instructor provided to them by the National Auto Sport Association. But being an owner I was eligible to enter a contest sponsored by BMW North America and I won like $500 worth of BMW branded car care products which showed up at my house in a big box.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 08:51
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I see CB77 perspectives on the perils with this siamese twinning. It just sets the path for eventually reigning in Acura as a beast of burden as things turn further south.

But as you talk about cachet or comparing to other luxury brands, I think you have to realize a quote Soichiro once said, “We do not make something because the demand, the market, is there. With our technology we can create demand, we can create the market. Supply creates its own demand.” Granted at the point Acura was launched he had already retired though his hand could still be felt as with the Acura logo story.

But seeing in that light and how things have evolved for Acura, they always thought they could rethink traditional luxury and be the iconoclast like Honda did with the mainstream market. Seeing in that light explains some of the decision making that seemed like Florida man was behind the wheel.

The luxury market is quirky but whether you judge with disdain at “zee Germans” or any other successful brand in this space, you have to see especially in the current state the importance of personalization and acknowledging what the customer wants. This stands in some contrast to the Honda-way.

Sure Honda when they had it right were in fact right. But it also showed the error of the ways by the horrible misses. So in the end we’re left with a situation illustrated by the famous Navy joke about a communication between a ship vs a lighthouse, as Owe once posted.

“We are a large warship of the US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW!”

“This is a lighthouse. Your call!”

CB77
Profile for CB77
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 09:36
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wrote:

I see CB77 perspectives on the perils with this siamese twinning. It just sets the path for eventually reigning in Acura as a beast of burden as things turn further south.

But as you talk about cachet or comparing to other luxury brands, I think you have to realize a quote Soichiro once said, “We do not make something because the demand, the market, is there. With our technology we can create demand, we can create the market. Supply creates its own demand.”




You bring up a good point, honduh. What used to serve Honda so well (Soichiro's maverick outlook on the business) sometimes becomes a big problem for Honda.

Soichiro delighted in defying the industry "experts" when in 1959, he brought the C100 step-thru 50cc bike to the American market. The nay-sayers all said "Nay"...but it was a wild success, launching Honda onto its current successful course...and becoming the largest-selling motorized vehicle in world history.

That stubbornness on Mr. Honda's part worked well for about 30 years, but then late in his time at Honda, and later in his life, it began to be a problem. He blew the call on air-cooled or water-cooled cars...and blew the call on SUVs.

The Motorcycle division blew the call on the side-by-side market, giving Kawasaki and Polaris a 20-year head start in that market...and forcing many of our true-blue (true-red?) exclusive Honda dealers to take on Kawasaki and Polaris in their business. Same thing for Personal Watercraft.

Acura has been hobbled by this kind of Honda-think. Thinking they can re-define what a Tier-1 luxury car should be. "We know better what the customer needs...and we will make it for them". There is an old country song that says "If your phone ain't ringin'...it's me." And Acura's phone ain't ringin'.









gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 10:11
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^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 11:34
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gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.



Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.

The Pebble Beach announcement should be really interesting. If it is what I heard it is going to be (not from Honda, by the way), this vehicle is designed to leapfrog into a new area (FC-EV) and define the performance-luxury end of that market.

You all can scoff at that if you wish. I think you are going to see Honda/Acura and two other MAJOR players in the US market making a Big push for FC in the US. In the 2020 model year.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 11:53
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Bullwinkle wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.



Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.

The Pebble Beach announcement should be really interesting. If it is what I heard it is going to be (not from Honda, by the way), this vehicle is designed to leapfrog into a new area (FC-EV) and define the performance-luxury end of that market.

You all can scoff at that if you wish. I think you are going to see Honda/Acura and two other MAJOR players in the US market making a Big push for FC in the US. In the 2020 model year.




:D There's perhaps a story to that.

Years ago, BL was working on a project called 'Pathfinder' which eventually emerged years later (when they had more money) as the Freelander. It was originally based on the Montego, later moved to the Rover 400 plank.

Honda was in a tie-up with BL at the time...

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 12:08
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Bullwinkle wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.



Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.

The Pebble Beach announcement should be really interesting. If it is what I heard it is going to be (not from Honda, by the way), this vehicle is designed to leapfrog into a new area (FC-EV) and define the performance-luxury end of that market.

You all can scoff at that if you wish. I think you are going to see Honda/Acura and two other MAJOR players in the US market making a Big push for FC in the US. In the 2020 model year.




Excellent posts!

wooderson79
Profile for wooderson79
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 12:26
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I'm a sales manager so I completely understand CB77s comments. But the other possibility is streamlining / maximizing efficiencies to spend more money on the product, versus the sales reps. It's upsetting when it happens and you're on the sales end but sometimes it's the right thing to do.
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 13:13
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owequitit wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CB77 wrote:

Just got a few more details on the shakeup. Looks like the Sales Reps are unscathed (for now) with Service and Parts feeling most of the pain. One of my fellow associates with good contacts as Honda and Acura says the following:

"Yes...it's true. There was a joint conference call Friday with ALL Acura/Honda Parts/Service Field Forces (over 200+ on the call). They will be combined, and new Districts will be drawn nationwide. I don't know about Reps, but many ZM's and AZPM's will be moving."




If Honda is going to shoot themselves in the foot over 200-300 employees and the associated "cost savings," then things appear to be far worse than I thought...


They might be looking at reducing their headcount by 10 to 20 employees at most unless the fat on the Acura side is greater that it would seem.

If they were to use the Nissan and Toyota plan, they would make the necessary cuts by moving their HQ to Tennessee or Texas. Right or wrong, this at least seems more honest with their employees.



Yet again, you COMPLETELY miss the point. Have to the see the forest through the trees, so to speak.

If a global company with hundreds of thousands of employees, multiple international divisions, and manufacturing infrastructure across the planet (totaling probably hundreds of billions of dollars), is rearranging sales reps to try and right the ship, then things aren't at all as they should be. Like CB77 said, not only is it a bad sign, but it probably isn't the end.

It's one thing to optimize your operation and quite another to do something like this to stem the tide. If Acura or Honda don't have something better to fix, then like I said, things are not as they should be. This is the type of stuff GM was doing during their decline.

The bigger problem is that as a result of failure to invest in product and a plan for the better part of 20 years, they are now having to "streamline" things such as this to cover the increasingly obvious failure that is Acura's market share loss.

Hopefully the new product coming out will reverse the trend and remind them that you have to pay to play.


Well, one of us is COMPLETELY missing the point about corporate re-orgs and why they happen. :)

NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 13:19
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Grace141 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CB77 wrote:

Just got a few more details on the shakeup. Looks like the Sales Reps are unscathed (for now) with Service and Parts feeling most of the pain. One of my fellow associates with good contacts as Honda and Acura says the following:

"Yes...it's true. There was a joint conference call Friday with ALL Acura/Honda Parts/Service Field Forces (over 200+ on the call). They will be combined, and new Districts will be drawn nationwide. I don't know about Reps, but many ZM's and AZPM's will be moving."




If Honda is going to shoot themselves in the foot over 200-300 employees and the associated "cost savings," then things appear to be far worse than I thought...


They might be looking at reducing their headcount by 10 to 20 employees at most unless the fat on the Acura side is greater that it would seem.

If they were to use the Nissan and Toyota plan, they would make the necessary cuts by moving their HQ to Tennessee or Texas. Right or wrong, this at least seems more honest with their employees.



Yet again, you COMPLETELY miss the point. Have to the see the forest through the trees, so to speak.

If a global company with hundreds of thousands of employees, multiple international divisions, and manufacturing infrastructure across the planet (totaling probably hundreds of billions of dollars), is rearranging sales reps to try and right the ship, then things aren't at all as they should be. Like CB77 said, not only is it a bad sign, but it probably isn't the end.

It's one thing to optimize your operation and quite another to do something like this to stem the tide. If Acura or Honda don't have something better to fix, then like I said, things are not as they should be. This is the type of stuff GM was doing during their decline.

The bigger problem is that as a result of failure to invest in product and a plan for the better part of 20 years, they are now having to "streamline" things such as this to cover the increasingly obvious failure that is Acura's market share loss.

Hopefully the new product coming out will reverse the trend and remind them that you have to pay to play.


Well, one of us is COMPLETELY missing the point about corporate re-orgs and why they happen. :)


Flips coin...

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 13:54
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Fitdad wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.



Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.

The Pebble Beach announcement should be really interesting. If it is what I heard it is going to be (not from Honda, by the way), this vehicle is designed to leapfrog into a new area (FC-EV) and define the performance-luxury end of that market.

You all can scoff at that if you wish. I think you are going to see Honda/Acura and two other MAJOR players in the US market making a Big push for FC in the US. In the 2020 model year.




Excellent posts!


They can't afford to continue being a different take on luxury or performance because mainstream brands are encroaching on what "smart luxury" was with more and more features trickling down, meanwhile the luxury stalwarts have moved onward and upward.

To the extent we buy into the need for a fossil fuel alternative, FC vehicles are an opportunity for Honda to define or re-define something. FC vehicles will offer the benefits of a PHEV but with practicality of use [refueling] that a PHEV cannot. I'd like to think Honda recognizes this and will leapfrog those who have sunk billions into PHEVs which have many logistical perils.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 14:22
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gofast182 wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.



Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.

The Pebble Beach announcement should be really interesting. If it is what I heard it is going to be (not from Honda, by the way), this vehicle is designed to leapfrog into a new area (FC-EV) and define the performance-luxury end of that market.

You all can scoff at that if you wish. I think you are going to see Honda/Acura and two other MAJOR players in the US market making a Big push for FC in the US. In the 2020 model year.




Excellent posts!


They can't afford to continue being a different take on luxury or performance because mainstream brands are encroaching on what "smart luxury" was with more and more features trickling down, meanwhile the luxury stalwarts have moved onward and upward.

To the extent we buy into the need for a fossil fuel alternative, FC vehicles are an opportunity for Honda to define or re-define something. FC vehicles will offer the benefits of a PHEV but with practicality of use [refueling] that a PHEV cannot. I'd like to think Honda recognizes this and will leapfrog those who have sunk billions into PHEVs which have many logistical perils.


I've made this exact same point in the past. This is one if the reasons why I disliked that 'Smart Luxury' direction. To add to this, the luxury stalwarts have actually push down and encroached upon what was the 'smart luxury' space as well. So Acura is being squeezed from both ends. The MB CLA is a text book example of this. Most of them even have subcompact CUV entries now in the US where Acura does not. The luxury leaders are casting a wider net even if it means getting into that near luxury space. They can afford to do this because they have the other end of the spectrum covered and their brand image/cachet intact.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 16:01
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Grace141 wrote:
CB77 wrote:

Mechanic sez:

"With all due respect to CB77's perspective, I don't see what's being described as a "shakeup." Or, if within the Honda organization what's been discussed is considered a "shakeup," it's wholly insufficient. What's needed is much, much more: a complete restructuring of the Acura division, beginning initially with the product line and ending with the business plan for the next ten years."


Grace141 sez:

"Not that I want to put the brakes on the talk here or anything but I'd point out that no one has mentioned a time frame for this re-org."


> Well guys...consider this:

1. When I chose the title for this post...it was still unclear as to how sweeping this change was going to be.

2. I did add a question mark to my title.

3. These changes will go into effect on 4/1/19...at the start of Honda's new fiscal year.

Perhaps I have been an alarmist with my thoughts on this. But to me, this is not the sign of a growing, thriving auto division...that sign would be the hiring of additional reps, not a consolidation of the existing field force. I know from experience (having endured similar re-orgs at AHM in the Motorcycle Division) that this is not a good sign...and this is not the end of it.



So if I have this straight, they call 200 people together for a conference call, more or less announce that two dozen of them will see their jobs change apparently without telling those who will be affected, and then they have two weeks to inform those employees and then have them move their families as needed or part with the company so Honda can hire replacements. You can't even post an in-house job listing and get through interviews in two weeks.

It almost seems like an April Fool's Day joke of some kind.




Usually, they do the layoff in the morning and then call the staff meeting in the afternoon for those who are left.

We just went through a big RIF ourselves. Sure enough... but the screwy thing was that a bunch of us, not all, got the invite for the All Hands in mid morning.. so we knew we wouldn't have that dreaded sudden one-on-one meeting with our manager.

Otherwise, you just knew you were screwed. Or blessed, after all the severance package is very nice and there's quite a bit of work elsewhere.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 16:10
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Fuck Acura - I only come here for Tony's stand-up.

He's here all week...



Not unless I'm driving.

Forget the F22s, if I were in the UK I'd be worry about seeing Eurofighters over your head. That might be Merkel... oh wait! Didn't the Jerries just say that they can't afford their military because of the social benefits for their future Toyota Technical driving immigrants?

You don't think the French would have the temerity to fly their fighters into England? You think they could be shot before they got past Calais? Merde!

Honestly, I always thought the special spanners you needed for your British cars were the pinnacle of peculiarity, but your PM May is simply worse. They must have thrown the mold when they created your current crop of MPs and Lords. Or rather, the mold broke in disgust.

You need another Cromwell.

What kind of cars would Cromwell and the Roundheads drive today? Surely nothing from the Papists.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 16:34
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TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Fuck Acura - I only come here for Tony's stand-up.

He's here all week...



Not unless I'm driving.

Forget the F22s, if I were in the UK I'd be worry about seeing Eurofighters over your head. That might be Merkel... oh wait! Didn't the Jerries just say that they can't afford their military because of the social benefits for their future Toyota Technical driving immigrants?

You don't think the French would have the temerity to fly their fighters into England? You think they could be shot before they got past Calais? Merde!

Honestly, I always thought the special spanners you needed for your British cars were the pinnacle of peculiarity, but your PM May is simply worse. They must have thrown the mold when they created your current crop of MPs and Lords. Or rather, the mold broke in disgust.

You need another Cromwell.

What kind of cars would Cromwell and the Roundheads drive today? Surely nothing from the Papists.



Churchill was an outstanding Brit.

He was the only one that kept them from capitulating to Germany as a Slave State.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 21:17
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Appeasement they called it, in the vain hope that a megalomaniac could be satisfied!
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 21:22
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gofast182 wrote:

.........but you are treated like you are important to them during the sales and service experiences which is the key.



Which would be considered part of the lifestyle you would wish for yourself? :)

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 21:31
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gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.


I agree on the need to nail the fundamentals. But your reference to the RDX is somewhat ironic. The 1G RDX actually created this space having come before the Q5 and X3. And the 1G embodied the Honda-way having offered SH-AWD, and a Turbo-4 as a performance alternative. It was just a tad half-baked, with the performance not quite living up to the promises. It was a missed opportunity as they let the competitors you cited define better what the segment wanted.

And the big players in this field are known to be power brokers. Honda has never been into giving excessive levels of power...or much excessiveness and extravagance for that matter. So by default they kind of have to create some of their own rules to play in the sandbox. It’s a matter of how far they are willing to go. As one of the players has said “the best or nothing...”

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2019 22:20
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honduh wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.


I agree on the need to nail the fundamentals. But your reference to the RDX is somewhat ironic. The 1G RDX actually created this space having come before the Q5 and X3. And the 1G embodied the Honda-way having offered SH-AWD, and a Turbo-4 as a performance alternative. It was just a tad half-baked, with the performance not quite living up to the promises. It was a missed opportunity as they let the competitors you cited define better what the segment wanted.

And the big players in this field are known to be power brokers. Honda has never been into giving excessive levels of power...or much excessiveness and extravagance for that matter. So by default they kind of have to create some of their own rules to play in the sandbox. It’s a matter of how far they are willing to go. As one of the players has said “the best or nothing...”


X3 came before RDX

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2019 04:59
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TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Fuck Acura - I only come here for Tony's stand-up.

He's here all week...



Not unless I'm driving.

Forget the F22s, if I were in the UK I'd be worry about seeing Eurofighters over your head. That might be Merkel... oh wait! Didn't the Jerries just say that they can't afford their military because of the social benefits for their future Toyota Technical driving immigrants?

You don't think the French would have the temerity to fly their fighters into England? You think they could be shot before they got past Calais? Merde!

Honestly, I always thought the special spanners you needed for your British cars were the pinnacle of peculiarity, but your PM May is simply worse. They must have thrown the mold when they created your current crop of MPs and Lords. Or rather, the mold broke in disgust.

You need another Cromwell.

What kind of cars would Cromwell and the Roundheads drive today? Surely nothing from the Papists.




They'd still be clinging on to Series-1 Landies and Morris Minors.

A 2CV would be far too advanced and luxurious for them.

As for the current crop, maybe we need the US to chlorinate them and get some of your genetically-modified ones.

Can we have Dr. Ron Paul, please? Not all US hegemony need be bad.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2019 11:05
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gofast182 wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.
Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.


Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.



Excellent posts!


They can't afford to continue being a different take on luxury or performance because mainstream brands are encroaching on what "smart luxury" was with more and more features trickling down, meanwhile the luxury stalwarts have moved onward and upward.



I actually think that as the lines between whatever luxury is and whatever mainstream is start to blur even further - established products are more important than ever.

And I also think feature creep has played a similar role - like - you can get basically any feature you want on any car you want. A BMW doesn't really seem to have much of anything that you can't also get on a Kia or Honda. It's sort of like the Incredibles line - when everyone is a superhero...then no one is a superhero.

If everything is upmarket and luxury...then nothing is actually luxury or upmarket.

So product identity is really important. The MDX is about to hit 20 years of sales and 1,000,000 total sales since launch (that might happen this year - for sure very early in 2020). The RDX is in its 14th year on sale and has set sales records 6 of the last 7 years. Even if those products change - I think they don't actually change that much in the eyes of buyers if their identity is strong enough and they don't totally change what they product actually is. I mean look at the Lexus RX. Lexus murdered it with an ugly stick and it still sells like gangbusters - because it's still a Lexus and soft and the right size.

Acura has struggled with sedans in part because they've never settled and really dedicated themselves to maintaining consistent identity: different model names, different vehicle sizes, huge design swings.... It's part of the reason why I keep banging the drum for the TLX to stay a compact.

As you say gofast - the next-gen TLX doesn't have to redefine anything either for the segment or for the brand. Like...literally just make a compact sedan version of the RDX. That's a big enough change and hard enough to accomplish but also it maintains the identity of the TLX as an Acura and as a compact luxury competitor.

cksi1372
Profile for cksi1372
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2019 16:15
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Bullwinkle wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
^ defining or re-defining something only works when that thing doesn't already exist or is fundamentally flawed. The sandbox Acura wants to play in already exists and despite some flaws that exist with the current paradigm/players, there isn't a fundamental one to fix.

Look at the RDX' success. They didn't redefine anything, it's closer to conforming with attributes you can get in a Q5 or X3 than ever before. Double down on "conformity" while leveraging some of the benefits they bring to the table...job done. It's not complicated.



Honda/Acura product history is loaded with such examples. Best example might be the CR-V. Honda saw the market that Toyota was creating with the RAV. The CR-V was designed to be a better RAV with more appeal to families and women. It's been at the top of that heap for a long time. The RDX is a version of the same type of "We can do that better" thinking.

The Pebble Beach announcement should be really interesting. If it is what I heard it is going to be (not from Honda, by the way), this vehicle is designed to leapfrog into a new area (FC-EV) and define the performance-luxury end of that market.

You all can scoff at that if you wish. I think you are going to see Honda/Acura and two other MAJOR players in the US market making a Big push for FC in the US. In the 2020 model year.




Interesting, considering this opinion that just came out...

https://www.bloomberg.com/hyperdrive

Granted, just his opinion, but seems he'd be the one to know or have a good grasp of FC vehicles. I honestly have no idea on FC, but if this new PB vehicle comes out with no ICE option initially, it's doomed, IMHO.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2019 20:53
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Nick GravesX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Fuck Acura - I only come here for Tony's stand-up.

He's here all week...



Not unless I'm driving.

Forget the F22s, if I were in the UK I'd be worry about seeing Eurofighters over your head. That might be Merkel... oh wait! Didn't the Jerries just say that they can't afford their military because of the social benefits for their future Toyota Technical driving immigrants?

You don't think the French would have the temerity to fly their fighters into England? You think they could be shot before they got past Calais? Merde!

Honestly, I always thought the special spanners you needed for your British cars were the pinnacle of peculiarity, but your PM May is simply worse. They must have thrown the mold when they created your current crop of MPs and Lords. Or rather, the mold broke in disgust.

You need another Cromwell.

What kind of cars would Cromwell and the Roundheads drive today? Surely nothing from the Papists.




They'd still be clinging on to Series-1 Landies and Morris Minors.

A 2CV would be far too advanced and luxurious for them.

As for the current crop, maybe we need the US to chlorinate them and get some of your genetically-modified ones.

Can we have Dr. Ron Paul, please? Not all US hegemony need be bad.



You're asking for the best, you know?

To say the Deux Chevaux is too good, well, that's really bad. As I've noted before, in a sea of Seats, Simcas, Isettas, various Frog Voiturettes, et al, I grew up in a 2CV.

It made my uncle's Renault and later Benzes paragons of luxury. I mean, it wasn't a bad car, it burnt more oil than fuel and it had a clownish but effective suspension. Do you ever experience a 2CVs front vent? Right under the windshield. You wanted to make sure it was cleaned of dust and what not after the winter before you first opened it in the spring.

I opened it once on the "freeway", rocketing along at 90 kph, and we almost crashed as the dirt went everywhere and my mother could barely see. ;-)

We had no British cars... I guess they rusted in transit from Dover to the Pyrenees?

My advice, ship your polity to the Kraut Land via the Chunnel and as soon as they start emerging on the Frog side, blow it up. B L O W it up.

Either invade Ireland or... heck... what to do with them? They sort of speak English and make reasonable whiskey. That back door problem sounds like an issue with your politicians.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2019 05:44
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TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Fuck Acura - I only come here for Tony's stand-up.

He's here all week...



Not unless I'm driving.

Forget the F22s, if I were in the UK I'd be worry about seeing Eurofighters over your head. That might be Merkel... oh wait! Didn't the Jerries just say that they can't afford their military because of the social benefits for their future Toyota Technical driving immigrants?

You don't think the French would have the temerity to fly their fighters into England? You think they could be shot before they got past Calais? Merde!

Honestly, I always thought the special spanners you needed for your British cars were the pinnacle of peculiarity, but your PM May is simply worse. They must have thrown the mold when they created your current crop of MPs and Lords. Or rather, the mold broke in disgust.

You need another Cromwell.

What kind of cars would Cromwell and the Roundheads drive today? Surely nothing from the Papists.




They'd still be clinging on to Series-1 Landies and Morris Minors.

A 2CV would be far too advanced and luxurious for them.

As for the current crop, maybe we need the US to chlorinate them and get some of your genetically-modified ones.

Can we have Dr. Ron Paul, please? Not all US hegemony need be bad.



You're asking for the best, you know?

To say the Deux Chevaux is too good, well, that's really bad. As I've noted before, in a sea of Seats, Simcas, Isettas, various Frog Voiturettes, et al, I grew up in a 2CV.

It made my uncle's Renault and later Benzes paragons of luxury. I mean, it wasn't a bad car, it burnt more oil than fuel and it had a clownish but effective suspension. Do you ever experience a 2CVs front vent? Right under the windshield. You wanted to make sure it was cleaned of dust and what not after the winter before you first opened it in the spring.

I opened it once on the "freeway", rocketing along at 90 kph, and we almost crashed as the dirt went everywhere and my mother could barely see. ;-)

We had no British cars... I guess they rusted in transit from Dover to the Pyrenees?

My advice, ship your polity to the Kraut Land via the Chunnel and as soon as they start emerging on the Frog side, blow it up. B L O W it up.

Either invade Ireland or... heck... what to do with them? They sort of speak English and make reasonable whiskey. That back door problem sounds like an issue with your politicians.




Nah - due to the better weather and the Generalissimo's protectionism, we got round the corrosion by building them there.

Admittedly, the AUTHI Vitoria and Barreiros 180 (it was designed by Roy Axe's team in Coventry) were perhaps after your time. But not the Avia J4?

Similar story with SEAT, really. But at least the Hispano-FIATs were clever designs by such greats as Dante Giacosa/Oscar Montabone. I got quite quick at changing head gaskets on the 850/903 engines...

Ireland will sort itself out; as long as the Catholics continue to breed like rabbits and the Protestants are ashamed of sex, the 'Six Occupied Counties' will have a Republican majority. They'd better bloody well get on with it - there's just over one month to go.

I think it's a bit cruel to inflict our politicos on the Nation States of Europe. It's not the Nation States that we have a problem with - quite the opposite. Perhaps just end them all off on the train and start back-filling the tunnel from both ends would be most pragmatic.

Mechanic
Profile for Mechanic
Re: Honda / Acura Shakeup?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2019 07:42
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TonyEX wrote: . . . I grew up in a 2CV . . .

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! You poor bastard.


 
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