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TOV Forums > Civic > > Re: I chose the Si over the GTI

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TonyEX
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Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2019 21:12
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NSXman wrote:
...
Is some of this due to the fact some Hondas have been under tired over the years?



With very few exceptions, NSX, ITR... AHM's cars can always use a good tire update and seem to respond very well to it.

(I have not driven the current CTR but I sure hope it has good tires because I want to get one... also in the past some of AHM's models would offer summer tire packages with HPD stuff... but those were always options.)

(Acura's Type S....Jesus, the 03 RSX-S had the worst OEM tires in history...).

The last time I recall a good tire in an AHM car was the 93 Vigor which came with Bridgestones... but they only lasted about 35K miles, so when the dealer replaced the tires ( this was an AHM car ) they put Michelins.

There went the sharpness of the steering! :-P

Ever since '94 AHM has gone with all weather tires. No more performance, except in very, very few precious models as noted.

Of course, you got the 2nd gen TL, with its BS EL32s... remember how we all complained about those? We swapped them for EL RE750s and the car suddenly came to life... for 20K miles.

The NSX too had tire issues... owners complained that the first years' tires didn't last too much and AHM had to change the tires, affecting the handling as well.

So, I guess it's a pull between costly handling or cheaper all weather mainstream.

PS- My 77 Civic, our 86 Integra, our 89 CRX Si and 90 Civic Si... oh boy, boy, boy! Our 05 GSR, Ay Señor Godzilla! Our 99 SH, 05 TL... Banzai Ginza mobiles... we put performance tires on all of those cars. It was hard to hide from the cops in the CRX. ;-)







bigblue
Profile for bigblue
Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2019 16:04
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These days Michelin Pilot Sports are uber-well rated.
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2019 16:18
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TonyEX wrote:
NSXman wrote:
...
Is some of this due to the fact some Hondas have been under tired over the years?



With very few exceptions, NSX, ITR... AHM's cars can always use a good tire update and seem to respond very well to it.

(I have not driven the current CTR but I sure hope it has good tires because I want to get one... also in the past some of AHM's models would offer summer tire packages with HPD stuff... but those were always options.)

(Acura's Type S....Jesus, the 03 RSX-S had the worst OEM tires in history...).

The last time I recall a good tire in an AHM car was the 93 Vigor which came with Bridgestones... but they only lasted about 35K miles, so when the dealer replaced the tires ( this was an AHM car ) they put Michelins.

There went the sharpness of the steering! :-P

Ever since '94 AHM has gone with all weather tires. No more performance, except in very, very few precious models as noted.

Of course, you got the 2nd gen TL, with its BS EL32s... remember how we all complained about those? We swapped them for EL RE750s and the car suddenly came to life... for 20K miles.

The NSX too had tire issues... owners complained that the first years' tires didn't last too much and AHM had to change the tires, affecting the handling as well.

So, I guess it's a pull between costly handling or cheaper all weather mainstream.

PS- My 77 Civic, our 86 Integra, our 89 CRX Si and 90 Civic Si... oh boy, boy, boy! Our 05 GSR, Ay Señor Godzilla! Our 99 SH, 05 TL... Banzai Ginza mobiles... we put performance tires on all of those cars. It was hard to hide from the cops in the CRX. ;-)









In addition to the all weather aspect, they are often 10mm skinnier than some of the competitors as well, aren't they?

Just seems that the compound and width are also contributing factors to the Honda braking distances.

But tires are one aspect that can easily be corrected on a car. Rotor diameter and caliper/pad contact patch, no as easy.

Design
Profile for Design
Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2019 12:57
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Honda has always been a tad conservative on their brake compound. A good example is the 10th Gen Si, which has pretty good summer tires, but seems to share the same essential pad/disc combo as the Accord. For normal driving it's fine. But every mag noticed the relative early fade after 1-2 hot laps. Even C&D noticed it during their standard stopping test, after several repeated attempts.



TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2019 01:06
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Dren wrote:
Owe is right about the seats in the Accord. Seats with any sort of semblance of side bolsters would help a lot. I slid around all over the place in mine when cornering. A rear sway upgrade helps a lot in that car, so much so that you'd expect a sporty variant to already have it stock. I never could find a good sitting position that was both comfortable and made the clutch easier to operate. In the optimal position to operate the clutch, the steering wheel blocked the speedometer. I'm glad others like them, I didn't. Then again, the least sporty car up to that point that I owned was a Civic Si. It is telling though that I enjoy pushing my Ridgeline through the corners more than the Accord. Yes, it's still a truck, but it is rewarding to drive unlike the Accord was. The only thing rewarding in the Accord was finally getting the hang of the damn clutch pick-up point. I still get to enjoy wringing out that 3.5 in my Ridgeline, too.

I'm pretty sure the MT versions don't have VCM.



I don't want to bother replying to Owe, it's a losing proposition filled with non sequiturs.

Anyhow, the Ridgeline is fun to drive, it goes around turns as in one piece, it just needs bigger brakes. That is its biggest shortcoming, IMHO. As you note, it feels more of a piece than those 6-6 Accords of the mid 00s.

It comes down to balance. It's not all about power, or about the clutch, it comes down how the whole car comes together.

You know, our '14 and '15 iMMD sedans were actually fun to drive at speeds under 60 mph if you used the "power" switch. Our Odysseys too were fun to drive. Heck my 77 Civic CVCC was a blast to drive -no power but aftermarket radial tires...

It's not the power, but how it's put to the ground.

Oh, btw, the Ridgeline on the highway is quite fast. Normally I drive by feel and ear (no CC) but on the truck that offers a range of 75 to 85 mph.. that feels the same. I always catch myself going much faster than I expected. It must be the long wheelbase and overdrive?






Says the guy interjecting non-sequiturs about how easily his Ridgeline can speed because he can't address any of the fundamental root points... Riiiiighhhhht.

We get it Tony, you blast of Lambos and rockets in your Ridgeline because that In 'n Out sticker makes you fast and gives you magical drifting power in the crosswalk at UCLA, while doing burnouts in all directions and showing a Challenger Hellcat what burning rubber really looks like...

Oh, guess how easily my Accord exceeds the speed limit? It would probably have another 20+ MPH left in it if the damn speed limiter would stop kicking in at 136... Oh and guess how easily my "torqueless" K20Z3 powered Si would also smash the limiter at 135? Easier than you think it would.



QED.

BTW, my GSR topped at 137 mph, which I did when I blew by that CHP watching the freeway.

I didn't get pulled over. God was on my side that day.

An ability to do 135 mph is irrelevant on public roads.

That's why I keep the McLaren in the garage.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2019 02:05
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NSXman wrote:
owequitit wrote:
NSXman wrote:
Curious the general gripe with brakes here. Are people generally discontented with the stopping power of Honda brakes or the durability? I've had my MDX for a year and have had the rotors resurfaced once. Durability I can see. But of the Hondas/Acuras I've owned, which have been 10, I have never thought they were severely incapable of stopping the car.

I realize that the publications say Hondas take a few more feet to stop in many cases in comparisons, but the "seat of the pants" feel to me has been fine. If I have to keep resurfacing rotors every 15,000 miles, that would be unfortunate.


A bit of both to be honest. Consider that most of the measured stopping distances on some of the previous Accords were bordering on 190-200 feet from 70MPH. Further, consider that in some cases, Honda was trailing by anything between 10-20 feet, which is really more than one car length. Not an insignificant amount. It has also been an issue with them giving up the ghost after 1 or 2 hard stops in some cases, or at least starting to shimmy really bad.

But then there is the resurfacing issue, which I personally think is linked more to pads than anything else.



Is some of this due to the fact some Hondas have been under tired over the years?



Tires are obviously a factor, but when the stock "undersized" tires are easily capable of providing enough grip to overheat the brakes, I don't think that is the sole issue. It isn't even the stopping distance that is necessarily the issue. It is the inability to withstand even "normal" driving heat cycling and the inability to not have the brake shimmy with the stock setup.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: I chose the Si over the GTI    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2019 13:45
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owequitit wrote:
NSXman wrote:
owequitit wrote:
NSXman wrote:
Curious the general gripe with brakes here. Are people generally discontented with the stopping power of Honda brakes or the durability? I've had my MDX for a year and have had the rotors resurfaced once. Durability I can see. But of the Hondas/Acuras I've owned, which have been 10, I have never thought they were severely incapable of stopping the car.

I realize that the publications say Hondas take a few more feet to stop in many cases in comparisons, but the "seat of the pants" feel to me has been fine. If I have to keep resurfacing rotors every 15,000 miles, that would be unfortunate.


A bit of both to be honest. Consider that most of the measured stopping distances on some of the previous Accords were bordering on 190-200 feet from 70MPH. Further, consider that in some cases, Honda was trailing by anything between 10-20 feet, which is really more than one car length. Not an insignificant amount. It has also been an issue with them giving up the ghost after 1 or 2 hard stops in some cases, or at least starting to shimmy really bad.

But then there is the resurfacing issue, which I personally think is linked more to pads than anything else.



Is some of this due to the fact some Hondas have been under tired over the years?



Tires are obviously a factor, but when the stock "undersized" tires are easily capable of providing enough grip to overheat the brakes, I don't think that is the sole issue. It isn't even the stopping distance that is necessarily the issue. It is the inability to withstand even "normal" driving heat cycling and the inability to not have the brake shimmy with the stock setup.



Yes, this. The stuff I was complaining about was having the brakes start to shudder in our Odyssey just by slowing on a freeway exit ramp in a lightly laden vehicle. That should NEVER happen. We're nowhere near the limits of adhesion and I'm talking about slowing from 75-80 to ~40-45mph


 
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