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TOV Forums > Strictly Technical > > Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD

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RAV
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Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 10:31
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When you look 0-60 times of MDX,RDX,TLX, the fwd cars are .1 faster to 60 than SHAWD cars. BMW., Audi's, MB's etc are .3 faster with awd. This would mean Acura/Honda's loose .4 in SHAWD. It usually takes about 25 HP to lower 0-60 .4. Is SHAWD that much of a power killer with all those clutches etc ?
Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 10:48
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RAV wrote:
When you look 0-60 times of MDX,RDX,TLX, the fwd cars are .1 faster to 60 than SHAWD cars. BMW., Audi's, MB's etc are .3 faster with awd. This would mean Acura/Honda's loose .4 in SHAWD. It usually takes about 25 HP to lower 0-60 .4. Is SHAWD that much of a power killer with all those clutches etc ?


Yes. J37 in the 4G TL SH AWD only puts down 225 or so to the wheels. FWD cars are 250ish. Parasitic losses from SH AWD are real. Perhaps someone else can chime in as to why they seem to be worse for SH AWD than for other systems.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 11:01
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Chris_6MT wrote:
RAV wrote:
When you look 0-60 times of MDX,RDX,TLX, the fwd cars are .1 faster to 60 than SHAWD cars. BMW., Audi's, MB's etc are .3 faster with awd. This would mean Acura/Honda's loose .4 in SHAWD. It usually takes about 25 HP to lower 0-60 .4. Is SHAWD that much of a power killer with all those clutches etc ?


Yes. J37 in the 4G TL SH AWD only puts down 225 or so to the wheels. FWD cars are 250ish. Parasitic losses from SH AWD are real. Perhaps someone else can chime in as to why they seem to be worse for SH AWD than for other systems.


Could the fact that SH-AWD appear to add an extra 260lbs of weight be another factor?

2017 TLX Tech 3510 lbs
2017 TLX Tech with SH-AWD 3770 lbs

https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/makes/acura/tlx/2017/specifications/technology/


lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 12:38
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Likely a result with traction/power, FWD Acura's don't make that much power so there aren't really traction issues that AWD is going to solve and help and Acura auto transmissions are not aggressively tuned for launches. Lighter RWD cars making more power have some traction issues due to less weight in the rear that AWD can help which is why AWD in some RWD based competitors are quicker, they can put down more power, launch control tuned for AWD traction, transmission tuned more aggressively for launches. TL 6 speed SH awd was much quicker then auto TL's with Shawd.

Not really sure why Rear engined 911's tend to be quicker with AWD as they get plenty of weight in the rear but they also tend to make a lot of power too so it overcomes the weight on the rear end.

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 13:16
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AWD is the way to put down more power,if you look all the monster performer are going awd. Many here seem to dismiss the idea of drivetrain loss for SHAWD so it must be the cautious transmission tuning and the fact others have launch control which puts SHAWD at a disadvantage.
RMTRADER
Profile for RMTRADER
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 14:41
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RAV wrote:
When you look 0-60 times of MDX,RDX,TLX, the fwd cars are .1 faster to 60 than SHAWD cars. BMW., Audi's, MB's etc are .3 faster with awd. This would mean Acura/Honda's loose .4 in SHAWD. It usually takes about 25 HP to lower 0-60 .4. Is SHAWD that much of a power killer with all those clutches etc ?


The German cars all have launch control. The Acura's don't. That would make an enormous difference. I would look at the 5-60 time that Car and Driver posts which will give you a more realistic set point.

99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 14:57
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lexusgs wrote:
Likely a result with traction/power, FWD Acura's don't make that much power so there aren't really traction issues that AWD is going to solve and help and Acura auto transmissions are not aggressively tuned for launches. Lighter RWD cars making more power have some traction issues due to less weight in the rear that AWD can help which is why AWD in some RWD based competitors are quicker, they can put down more power, launch control tuned for AWD traction, transmission tuned more aggressively for launches. TL 6 speed SH awd was much quicker then auto TL's with Shawd.

Not really sure why Rear engined 911's tend to be quicker with AWD as they get plenty of weight in the rear but they also tend to make a lot of power too so it overcomes the weight on the rear end.


Lol... A 2015-2018 TLX FWD V6 will lay rubber for as long as you want it to. As far as not making power a 13.3 sec 0-100 shows that it is obviously making something.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2019 18:13
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Mikeydred wrote:
AWD is the way to put down more power,if you look all the monster performer are going awd. Many here seem to dismiss the idea of drivetrain loss for SHAWD so it must be the cautious transmission tuning and the fact others have launch control which puts SHAWD at a disadvantage.


This. Ever since the 5AT failure debacle Honda has been ultra afraid of more driveline failures. They torque manage everything down to mediocrity. THey'd be better off just doing some serious durability testing and beefing up the parts instead.

SC

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2019 07:48
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HondaForever wrote:
Chris_6MT wrote:
RAV wrote:
When you look 0-60 times of MDX,RDX,TLX, the fwd cars are .1 faster to 60 than SHAWD cars. BMW., Audi's, MB's etc are .3 faster with awd. This would mean Acura/Honda's loose .4 in SHAWD. It usually takes about 25 HP to lower 0-60 .4. Is SHAWD that much of a power killer with all those clutches etc ?


Yes. J37 in the 4G TL SH AWD only puts down 225 or so to the wheels. FWD cars are 250ish. Parasitic losses from SH AWD are real. Perhaps someone else can chime in as to why they seem to be worse for SH AWD than for other systems.


Could the fact that SH-AWD appear to add an extra 260lbs of weight be another factor?

2017 TLX Tech 3510 lbs
2017 TLX Tech with SH-AWD 3770 lbs

https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/makes/acura/tlx/2017/specifications/technology/




It's closer to 300 lb in the case of my Leg End. And there's inertia as well as actual mass.

Then again, if you stall the torque converter it still moves away pretty swiftly, where my old 'Lude would be spinning up on a wet, cold surface.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-01-2019 22:48
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99SI wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Likely a result with traction/power, FWD Acura's don't make that much power so there aren't really traction issues that AWD is going to solve and help and Acura auto transmissions are not aggressively tuned for launches. Lighter RWD cars making more power have some traction issues due to less weight in the rear that AWD can help which is why AWD in some RWD based competitors are quicker, they can put down more power, launch control tuned for AWD traction, transmission tuned more aggressively for launches. TL 6 speed SH awd was much quicker then auto TL's with Shawd.

Not really sure why Rear engined 911's tend to be quicker with AWD as they get plenty of weight in the rear but they also tend to make a lot of power too so it overcomes the weight on the rear end.


Lol... A 2015-2018 TLX FWD V6 will lay rubber for as long as you want it to. As far as not making power a 13.3 sec 0-100 shows that it is obviously making something.



Really?

Our '16 TLX SH-AWD would NEVER lay rubber no matter what settings I chose and whether I tried to disable TCS. The computer would NEVER allow me to burn rubber (sad)... OTOH, the sucker was fast. Whatever power was being made went right to the tires. On Sport Mode Manual, by the time I shifted at redline to 4th I was going way faster than the speed limit.

Then you got the turns.... at that point, power is not so important, HOW you lay the power, now THAT'S what matters. 100 bhp into the outside rear tire provides a lot of acceleration in the right direction.


99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-02-2019 08:00
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Front Wheel Drive. Totally different story with 245 series tires on the 2019+ FWD. Point is for anyone to say the car doesn't make much power is crazy and has never driven one.
Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-03-2019 01:09
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RMTRADER wrote:
RAV wrote:
When you look 0-60 times of MDX,RDX,TLX, the fwd cars are .1 faster to 60 than SHAWD cars. BMW., Audi's, MB's etc are .3 faster with awd. This would mean Acura/Honda's loose .4 in SHAWD. It usually takes about 25 HP to lower 0-60 .4. Is SHAWD that much of a power killer with all those clutches etc ?
[/

The German cars all have launch control. The Acura's don't. That would make an enormous difference. I would look at the 5-60 time that Car and Driver posts which will give you a more realistic set point.


All German cars DO NOT have launch control.

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-03-2019 16:55
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When I had a FWD RDX loaner, I was floored at how fast it was compared to my SHAWD MDX.

By the seat of the pants the MDX felt slow, which I honestly don't think it is slow.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-03-2019 19:35
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99SI wrote:
Front Wheel Drive. Totally different story with 245 series tires on the 2019+ FWD. Point is for anyone to say the car doesn't make much power is crazy and has never driven one.


Doesn't the FWD have TCS?

Can you defeat TCS with the 8DCT?

I've never had much luck burning rubber with an AT. Our 04 TL would simply not allow it. Our previous CLs and TLs would not either.

It took a clutch and a MT to do it. Then, you had no real issues laying rubber.

99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: Why are Honda/Acura all wheel drive cars slower than FWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-03-2019 21:58
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Even with the traction control on it will light them up. let's not even talk about in cold weather.

This review gives a good visual of what it looks like. At 13:30 and 15:30. The 2019 is better tied down with the 245 tires.

https://youtu.be/XMImrCF4uNc


 
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